69 thoughts on “The End of Welfare: Impact on Puerto Rico?”
bad times
what happened to the discussions? they were old–from April. i thought i was in a time warp. glad to see new topics although Vieques must continue as a topic until we get out of this navy mess.
another mess is the end of the welfare rolls. under the feds people on welfare were given five years to find a job or some other kind of living situation — not dependent on welfare. those who wound up on workfare and didn’t find anything else or aren’t being hired by the companies they worked for are also out. i know a good part of the population in Puerto Rico is on welfare and so the effects will be devastating: hire unemployment, more crime, more drugs, more agitation towards…
maybe the navy will dangle an employment carrot at Puerto Rico while bush gives his approval to stay another millenium. sad.
RE: bad times
It should always be kept in mind that as poverty in America became brown or black, the attacks escalated–anyone remember Ronald Reagan’s “welfare queen,” who apparently drove a Cadillac and had six or seven kids? Twenty years later, we still don’t know who she was! Once whites became “convinced” that the black & brown portion of the population was cheating the country, a backlash occured. This in spite of the fact that the majority of people on welfare were white women with children. Of course, that wasn’t the point–the point was to deny those of color of any help, and if they (predictably) turned to “crime” then you lock them up. That’s how one deals with a “surplus” population in a democracy.
In light of recent bailouts of, for example, the airline industry, welfare must be defined carefully–it of course doesn’t refer to corporate welfare, but help to those of less fortunate. It’s similar to talking about crime in the streets without noting the crime in the suites.
RE: RE: bad times
To further expound, humbly, on the color issue Victor brings up and recontextualizes for us. The prisons are being and have been privatized in a manner that once more impacts the population of color in the U.S. Of course, this impacts Latinos and Puerto Ricans living here as well as in Puerto Rico. Within the colonial context, these private prisons become direct forms of abusing our people, falling outside the weak regulatory realm of the Puerto Rican government.
What on earth will Calderon do with the vanished social net on the island? What provisions have been made to handle this new onslaught. Perhaps the cooling down of the anti-Navy rhetoric points to a rapprochement that might lead to some form of aid. If not expect an explosive 2002 with violent confrontations, not only in Vieques but in different parts of Puerto Rico.
These are truly bad times.
RE: RE: RE: bad times
Mr Smith: don’t be so
humble! 🙂
I just finished a book called, Newjack–it’s about Sing Sing prison in NY, and the experiences of a reporter who becomes a guard for a year. He notes at one point that the population of the prison is 56% African-American, 30% Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) and 10% white. One is reminded of the African-American community hailing Bill Clinton as the first black President, while a few weeks after he left office, a Department of Justice report noted that more people of color ended up in prison during the 8 years of the Administration, than during the 8 years of the Reagan Administration–guess Bill felt our pain, eh?
RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
preach on!
On the scale of Operation Bootstrap
What is that supposed to mean?
With the worsening economy, comes the worsening of the society. People already live in fear, gated within their homes. More drugs, more robberies, more murders, more departures to the states. With the end of welfare, there will be a need for a new nationwide program and social agenda on the scale of Operation Bootstrap but addressing our new set of needs as and urban and suburban society.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
I don’t preach–I’m an atheist! 🙂
It will be interesting to see what we as a society do fot (or is it to?) those who were “encouraged” to get a job, thanks to Clinton’s welfare “reform”. Now that there’s a 5 year lifetime limit, will the current man in the White House show us his “compassionate” conservatism? Oh wait, that’s only for major industries, not the wokers!
RE: bad times
Now, Puerto Ricans can’t live in welfare they rest of their lives, can we? How could the destruction of welfare in PR give our people higher unemployment? The people are taking welfare because they are unemployed, or just like some extra cash…(wink wink) which ofcoiurse, is what the majority of Boricuas on welfare are doing. I think what you mean is a lower stabdard of living. OH NO! Boricuas can’t buy that 5th care and Direct Tv satellite now. awwwwwwwwww. LMAO
The crime only rises because of the way our police and govt work. Policemen don’t really care anymore, and that needs to be fixed as well as the Puerto Rican people respect for law enforcement.
The same goes for Drugs and PR’s colonial state in not being able to control immigration both legal and illegal and law enforcement is a contribution to that.
If the current welfare program in PR ( called coupones, as a commonwealth PR has welfare restriction, THANK GOD!) was destroyed and replaced with other, less lazyness supporting social programs, I would say, why not! It is a waste of the USA’s money and our peoples dignity, it is also keeping us away from full democratic rights and in this limbo we call “the free associated state!” Please! Some people might need the foodstamps, but most don’t, and thats a problem.
RE: RE: bad times
Of course, the fact that Puerto Ricans were always working is somewhat irrelevant. My impression seems to be that if not for social programs, PR would be in worse shape than it is now–that’s the result of a colonial structure. As to the majority of Puerto Ricans being on welfare for some “extra cash,” where’s your source for that statement? It’s that simple–just money (implying that we as a group are faking our poverty) that “Boricuas” take to buy a 5th car? Gee, I didn’t know we had that much wealth and were just holding on to it!
Given that as US workers, our wages haven’t kept up since the 1970s, what option is available to the country’s backwater (which is what PR is to the U.S.)? You go in, take over valuable land, kick out the workers who were barely surviving in the first place and then you turn around and blame them because of lazyness? Unbelievable.
I doubt the writer knows anybody who’s on welfare and buying a 5th, functioning car–this sounds like what Ronal Reagan used to say about the black “welfare queen” who had 12 kids and a Cadillac–she’s never been found.
RE: bad times
I know it is hard to get off the band wagon with all these freebies, but the time has come to step forward and respect ourselves as a people and more so for our women, who quickly learned from their mother’s and friends that welfare is the way to go. As a first generation Nuyorican growing up in the 1950’s, I believed that we would have progress to an elevated status.
Preach on!
That was just an expression! Oh and for the record, our current president’s policies does benifit the workers. It certainly benifits me a middle-class, conservative Republican African-American
female. I am glad that my hard earned tax dollars are being returned to me and not going to some failed social program. I can donate my hard earned dollars to causes that are near and dear to me and believe you me, I put my money where my mouth is.
RE: RE: bad times
Doubtful–Puerto Ricans were not considered much better than African Americans, were herded into crumbling neighborhoods, low wage factory jobs, and were considered to be dangerous and always carrying a knife (see West Side Story). Besides, where are the numbers? I mean, is the claim being made that once the mass migration to the U.S. occurred (after 1945 especially) Puerto Ricans went on welfare–and a large number of them? If that’s the claim, as a history major, I’d like to see the studies, please. After all, it shouldn’t be that hard to locate, right? If there is no proof, then I have to conclude the argument is based solely on episodic events (that is, you knew people who were on welfare, therefore all Puerto Ricans were on welfare). Speaking personally, the people I knew on welfare were not exactly rolling in dough, and in most cases, did need it.
END OF WELFARE %3D END OF CIVILIZATION
The end of welfare would have the same impact on Puerto Rico as it would in any other part of the world. I cannot think of any segment of society, at least civilized society, that is not significantly sustained by subidies from the public trough.
Welfare is nothing more than a mechanism to provide the population with the currency needed for the market place. Purchasing power is not enough to support corporate needs for manufacturing and expansion. Most salaries are not adequate to meet the needs of providing for house & home alone, not to mention luxuries like a night out at the movies.
Proponents of ending welfare (in any of its forms) are driven by biases ranging from racism, political precepts to an inability to imagine the very simplest paradigms. Just consider that in Puerto Rico, ‘cupones’ are actually used as currency. I mean, like, you can play the numbers with ‘cupones’ … and that is as it should be. Money is anything that we place enough trust in to render it legal tender … USD, Euros, Francs…Cupones.
Even if it has to be cashed in in the black market, it still translates into legal tender.
Until such time as societies can provide jobs for everyone, welfare will have to pick up the slack. Stop welfare and sit back & watch the market place come to a grinding halt.
RE: RE: RE: bad times
Been to Puerto Rico lately? As I already stated, yes there are many Puerto Ricans IN Puerto Rico who do need it, but there are also many who do not, need those copones. It is funny, many Boricuas complain about the conditons in Cuba, for some reason many Puerto Ricans are obsessed with Cuba, (im talking about the Puerto Ricans in PR not NYC or wherever) but the weird similarity is that Cubans wait in long lines to recieve rations and Puerto Ricans wait in long lines to recieve copones, lol. There are MANY Puerto Ricans who simply do not need it, how do I know? I am not oblivious to the realities of PR, and I know people, close people in PR who take welfare but simply don’t need it, some of them work and have jobs, but take that extra money, against regulation rules, to buy that extra car, to have that extra TV. Many Boricuas need it, but many do not, and thats the TRUTH, that if you deny, then I am not sure you even been to or lived in PR before. There are also many lazy Boricuas, who could get a job, but choose not to, and enjoy that unemployment componsation. I am not saying jobs are plentiful in PR, ofcourse not, but it is not as bad as people tend to think it is. Our colonial system and our politicans corruption skeams and fixation on the status question is also to blame on our mass dependency on the USA and on social programs, more could be done, and status is a part of that, but we could prepare to be more self-sufficient without rolling in that welfar emoney. Remember, in PR, ther eis not much regulaiton nor care for regulaiton, because it is free money from the “North American” nation, and thats a mentality that is rampant in PR, even in the govt, and thats a problem.
Sorry, Ronald Reagan, to me, is or was, due to his little mental disease, an un compassionate psycho, who saw commies under his bed, lol.
If you care so much, get up and do something about it, don’t be like Al Sharpton and just want welfare to take care of things, welfare makes people lazy, many need it, but many tend not to need it, and thats a FACT!
RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Basically, your argument rests on a flimsy basis: anectodes. I know people who cheat on taxes–should we get rid of the tax code? As to “many” of these people who don’t need social services, how many? Based on what? It’s also an arrogant attitude that declares that people using social services are “lazy”; in fact, most people, whether on social services or not, are not “lazy” all of the time.
As to PRs who admire Cuba, they’re probably admiring a small nation that has the highest rate of literacy in the Western Hemisphere, has been able to offer free medical care, free education and even sends doctors and teachers all throughout South America. Is it perfect? No, it’s headed by a dictator–though less horrible, on average, than some of the dictators we’ve supported throughout the decades.
RE: END OF WELFARE %3D END OF CIVILIZATION
The best book I ever read that really translated the impact of the welfare system was Cloward and Pivens “Regulating the Poor”. It really demonstrated how the economy constricts and contracts and this determines how the government keeps the poor poorer and the rich richer.
Thanks for the exerts.
DEAR ANA…
Ahhh, Piven & Cloward…what graduate school memories. Thanks for the memories, Ana.
My view is that currency is essentially currency. I think we can bring many of P&Cs precepts into question, but what cannot be indicted is the notion that you have to provide alternative currencies in an economy where not everyone has an opportunity to work. Oh, dont forget to add alternative markets as well; ie, the Underground Economy — which trades in legal tender of all forms.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Oh, and what is yours based on? Anecdotes as well. You stated so many times that all the people you know need it, guess what, that personal “experience” that you said to me, is an anecdote, and your arguements have not produced any official numbers, nor did mine. Why? Mainly because the PR government doesnt really does nor really care to do any real investigations to “cupones cheaters,” because its free money from the “Great North American nation,” and it is supposedly ok to be dependent on a larger nation, while our “insignificant” chiquetito isla is worth nothing to work hard for. (Can’t you feel the sarcasim? Warm and fuzy isn’t it? 🙂 )
Did I ever say that ALL people who use social services are lazy? If I did, then I stated NUMEROUS times in my last post, so you wouldn’t bring up that one little slip up again, that NOT ALL but some people who use public assistance tend to do it because they want that extra money. Many need it, as I said over and over again, constantly, to bring it straight to your head, but NOT ALL need it. If you are stating that ALL people who use public assistance NEEDS it, then that is an extremely exaggerated statement based on no facts, not even an anecdote, which is ALWAYS important when trying to prove an arguement.
All I am saying that there are things that we can do PAST WELFARE. To me, through personal experience, and living in NYC where Guliani, not the most perfect Mayor of NYC, but an intelligent one, decreased the welfare rolls from a whopping 500,000 to a few tens of thousands. How? He made them work for their checks, even cleaning the streets, every little job needs to be done and if you want that welfare check as much as a junkie wants his next fix, you have to work for it, even if you don’t want to work in that particular job, because working is good. Also, you are supposedly on welfare, because you couldn’t find a job, then the Mayor will find one for you. Similar programs has popped up in Chicago, which also has been successful. Also, now there is a limit on how long you can be on welfare.
Being dependent on foreign money is not a good thing, being dependent 100% on public money is not a good thing. Public money and foreign money should be used for certain things, but to make a people believe that they could recieve money without working without even trying.That is not a good thing to impose on a peoples mentality, because then you will have a welfare state, such as in PR.
There are many immigrants who come to PR, but it seems to be that most of them who use welfare are Puerto Ricans, and the already residential African-Americans. Why is that? Why are there so many Puerto Ricans on welfare, when there are other immigrants or people who need it way more in porportion to their population in the USA (remember, NOT ALL need it), such as Native Americans. Yes, PR’s are already American citizens when they arrive in the USA, giving them a chance to recieve that check, but do All of them need it? Do you see most Mexicanos or Dominicanos, when they first recieve their citizenship, jump towards the welfare office? I don’t think so.
Again, this welfare mentality is not working, NOT ALL people on welfare need it. We also need to go past the program of recieving a check in the mail without making sure thay person needs it, without recieving anything for it in return, and leaving the person to recieve that check as long as that person wants to. There needs to be a welfare reform, because in Cuba, (I never said PRs admire Cuba, I said PR’s are OBSESSED with Cuba, there is a BIG difference. Also, that OBSESSION is in the fact that MOST PRs are afraid of Communism, which I will conclude from anecdotes, unless you want to argue that MOST PRs’ WANT to be a Communist nation? LOL) they don’t have a welfare state that PR does. In Cuba they work, and work hard for Fidelito, and recieve the benefits they diserve, that I already known about.
I hope we can come to an understanding now, because it is becoming quit tiring in arguing something that is so obvious and true.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Also, welfare should be the LAST resort you take, after trying out all other opportunities you could take to spring you back up to economic recoverry and stability. That is another problem, many people, especially Boricuas, don’t do that. Once they are in financial trouble, they turn to welfare too soon, and that is another result of the welfare state mentality PR’s have recieved throughout the decades.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Also, Victor, has once stated to me “I doubt the writer knows anybody who’s
on welfare…” Which is intresting, because, he wrote that because he disagreed with my comments concerning welfare, then when I wrote and presented that I knew people who were on welfare, he wrote that my anecdotic arguements are flimsy. So, thus, because I disagreed with him, I had to be an outsider, with no anecdotes, but when I showed that I did have anecdotes, then those arguements were meaningless. So, what is Victor intrested in? Anecdotes or no anecdotes, because it seems to me, that even he isn’t sure, LOL!
I have already presented facts and numbers on my beliefs, besides anecdotes. My arguement is as full as it could be, and I already expressed my beliefs concerning welfare. That NOT everyone on it really really NEEDS it, that many people need to take the neccessary steps before jumping towards welfare, welfare should be the last resort, and there should be regulations on welfare and on the welfare state knows as Puerto Rico.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Well, we are all lucky the above was based not on anectodal information, but facts. “Many people……”
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Actually, if you’re going to quote me—not a bad thing—be accurate. Why not give the COMPLETE sentence? Here it is: “I doubt the writer knows anybody who’s
on welfare and buying a 5th, functioning
car–this sounds like what Ronal Reagan
used to say about the black “welfare
queen” who had 12 kids and a Cadillac-
she’s never been found.”
As far as I can tell, this statement still holds.
RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
So, here’s the “evidence”: There are MANY Puerto Ricans who simply
do not need it, how do I know? I am not
oblivious to the realities of PR, and I
know people, close people in PR who take
welfare but simply don’t need it, some
of them work and have jobs, but take
that extra money, against regulation
rules, to buy that extra car, to have
that extra TV. Many Boricuas need it,
but many do not, and thats the TRUTH…
Note the use of words like “many” NOT followed by how many–and out of how many total.
I think my travel agent would be amused to know I haven’t been to PR lately. That’s funny!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
“I have already presented facts and
numbers on my beliefs, besides anecdotes”
I might be dense, but please refer all of us to the post where “numbers” were given.
Here’s the challenge–all (or most) of these posts state in one way or another that “many” PRs are lazy, have a welfare mentality, cheat (or more accurately, steal) from the US treasury by having cupones when they don’t need them, etc. OK, what studies is this based on? Give specifics. These studies should, at a minimum, show: (a) how many PRs are on welfare, (b) whether they are in PR or in the US (c) out of how many–that is, is it 30% of the population, etc (d) whether or not there are indeed jobs that provide the same or a little higher level of income than they now have
One day perhaps we’ll take a look at corporate welfare and see which is more expensive to the nation. Ain’t it funny how those who rail against social welfare never seem alarmed at the corporate version of it? Sort of like complaining about crime in the streets, whilst ignoring crime in the suites—-a slogan for the recently “intelligent” Giuliani Administration.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
An elementary rule of logic: “He (or she) who asserts, must prove.”
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim–In the area of social science/analysis that is done through careful documentation/studies. This is an elementary point, and based on all written so far, the burden of proof has NOT been made.
As to this being “Obvious and true,” this is sort of like the discussions I have with believers in god, who can just never seem to provide concrete evidence as to what they believe, but still want you to take their irrational position seriously (I am not calling you irrational and illogical, mind you).
OK, gotta go now–the mailman just came with my cupones! 🙂
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
As far as you know, you don’t know anything about me. The statement is true, from what I have seen and experienced. Not exactly a 5th car, but 4. It happens all the time in Puerto Rico. It seems like every family memeber has to have their own mini van. jajajaja!!!!!!
On the issue of me being like Ronald Reagan, now thats a real joke! jajajajaj!!!!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
You want to see how many PR’s are in welfare in PR? Well, it is 60% of the population on the cupones. Those numbers have been given in El Nueva Dia, PR’s largest circulating newspaper for year, given by the government and the University of PR. You asking if there are jobs that can give them the income higher then what they recieve from cupones, (people in PR reciev e money ILLEGALLY by cashing in the foodstamps for money, do you think they are buying food with that money?????) they you must not really know PUERTO RICO. Jobs are not plentiful there, but there are jobs that can give higher incomes to the people, why, because in order to qualify for foodstamps, your income has to be higher then $4,800, and there are certaintly jobs in PR higher then that. Such as government jobs, which most people work in, or manufactoring jobs.
Anyway, as I stated so many times already, more can be done in PR, besides giving out free money. CREATE JOBS, not lazyness!
On the issue of corporate welfare, that is another think that is destroying PR. Ever hear of section 936, section 3A, section 956 of the Internal Revenue Code. I am not AGAINST social welfare, it is how it is implemented and regulated in a society that counts, and the welfare in PR is something to make the people dependent and “happy” with their colonial status.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
I can see you are becoming annoyed. jajajaja Don’t take think personaly, I am just defending what I believe in, and what is true. I don’t find it amusing though, that you find it funny that so many Puerto Ricans, about 60% of the people, are on welfare, and 40% and about that same amount are under the poverty line. Or that our infant mortality rate is about 11 death from 1,000 births, or 27% of our Boricua mothers didn’t even finish H.S. Or maybe because 1/6 of our female population are sterilized, our crime rate is higher then the USA with more then 25 death per 1,000 people in such a small island. Or because 90% of those crimes are drug related, where Puerto Rico can’t even control immigration of any kind, because of our political status. Enough numbers for you? All recieved from El Nuevo DÃa, Puerto Rico’s police department, Departemento de la Salud, y Departamento de la Familia. Including the anecdotes I have offered to you.
The issue of welfare in PR has many origins. Many people are poor, and do need it, but it stands firm that many do not. I can’t give you any official documented information on that, because remember, as I stated before, the PR government (which supports the commonwealth, Partido Popular Democrático) does not care to document on how many people cheat the system. What I have seen there through my own eyes, is more then a person who claim ther eis a God can ever experience.
I do know, that the origins of the use of cupones is somethign that need to be dealt with, and just “throwing” money at it and thinking it will go away, without actually fixing the problem, is not the solution.
Lets try this, what do you think need to be improved in Puerto Rico? 🙂
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
As far as you know, you don’t know
anything about me. The statement is true
from what I have seen and experienced.
Not exactly a 5th car, but 4. It happens
all the time in Puerto Rico. It seems
like every family memeber has to have
their own mini van. jajajaja!!!!!!
On the issue of me being like Ronald
Reagan, now thats a real joke! jajajajaj
!!!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
In my educated guess through experience, I would say maybe 20-30% out of the 60% that are on welfare. Just go to any supermarket in PR (hands on experience for a foreigner) and ask how many people a day, come in, to cash in their foodstamps, or just ask the people who are on foodstamps, (that will not be hard, there are just sooo many, jajajaja) and the answer will be surprising.
Anyway, visiting PR on a nice travel to the beaches in Isla Verde, El Condado, Flamenco, or la Playa de Fajardo while you are staying in the Ponce Hilton, or El Conquistador resort, while nic ehikes in El Yunque rainforest, while site seeing in Viejo San Juan is not exactly seeing the REAL Puerto Rico, through all its troubles and social tradegies. Yes, you might of seen through a Caserio (Know what that is?) on the highway on your way to Plaza Las Americas (then it would of been Llornes Torres, which is very infamous in San Juan and PR) or seen La Perla while you were in El Morro, but go to the “heart” of PR. (not exactly Caguas, which nickname is “El Corazón de Puerto Rico”) Such as towns as San Lorenzo, Juncos, LoÃza Aldea, especially, and I don’t exactly mean the beaches, and you will see the real PR and its people. TALK WITH them. (assuming you haven’t, you have, then good for you, continue to talk to them, for that they are the real people of PR who need help besides experimental money from the USA who just want them to be dependent and shut up about it) What you will hear, will only verify what I have been telling you.
Anyway, off the subject, from your last statement, I have inferred that you have been to PR lately. Which part of PR, let it be city, or site, is your favorite. My favorite city would have to be “El Corazón de Puerto Rico.” 🙂
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
I would like to point out a mistake on my part. I stated before, that 60% of the PR population is on welfare, and 40% are under the poverty line. Those numbers are SWITCHED. More then 40% of the PR population are on welfare, and more then 60% of the PR population are under the poverty line. Anyone with an income lower then about $9,800 are under the poverty line. Anyone whose income is under about $4,800 are qualified to recieve foodstamps. Except, remembe,r people cheat and lie, just as people do on their income tax returns in the USA, which is easy, and in PR, they don’t even really check.
This website http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/indicators01/apa-FS.htm only confirms the mass dependency on foodstamps in Puerto Rico. More then 1.3 million people were on welfare in PR during the year of 1999, and during that time the population of PR was more then 3.5 million. Now that is more extreme then any other state, then maybe the District of Colombia, porportionate from the people on welfare to the population.
As, I stated before, I am not against social welfare, but there are different kinds of social welfare. Social welfare should be used to ease the woes of financial troubles of the people, temporarily, or permaneantly, dependening the type of welfare, such as free medical care or education. It SHOULD NOT, be used to send the people into MASS dependency on a FOREIGN government, as a permaneant form of trickery so that the people can be “happy” and “grateful” that money is being “thrown” at them, at the expense of their dignity, and the scapecoat of the real origins of the problems they have that sends them to welfare. Which, ofcourse, is not being dealt with in PR, and now, because of the new wave of surfaced corruption, things has been realized worse then previously thought. What is being done to solve that problem, very little, what is being done, is more money is being thrown at it without a REAL plan to solve it, nor a plan to actually make the money themselves, instead of begging Uncle Sam for some change.
Understand where I am getting at. It is not that I a against the helping of the working class, it is that I am against the dependency of the working class on something that is destroying their dignity, and their nation, while it is being used as a scapecoat of their REAL PROBLEMS and social consern. That is the reality of Puerto Rico, whether you believe it or not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Now, here is a question that I would like to ask you, off the subject.
What is your political ideology? Meaning, if your a neoliberalist conservative, centralist, social democrat, liberatarian…etc?
Also, what would you like as a political status for Puerto Rico?
From my guess, if I may give one, is that you support statehood for PR. Mainly, because of the welfare benefits and dependency on the USA. Maybe your not a “penepe,” but a “populares” supporting the commonwealth. Independentista, I am not sure, unless you want a soverign welfare state.
Just a question, to really understand where you stand. Oh, and have youe ver been to http://www.puertorico.com before? I think the political section will satisfy your need for arguements on the socioeconomical conditions of PR. Go and join there, it is a great site. 🙂
I hope this open dialogue discussion hasn’t become personal, because that is not my intentions. My intentions is to present to you what I have seen and experience in PR, the reality of the island, and the truth of welfare ON THE ISLAND, while BOTH of us learning something from it at the same time. 🙂
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
The statement is similar to Reagan’s. (sigh)
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Hallelujah! Some figures!
No one disagrees with the numbers–I just wanted to see what figures you would quote.
This just strengthens my point: if 40% are on welfare—and one needs to earn below 10K a year, then where’s the mass cheating? Are there many (and if so, how many) people on welfare who dont need it? Since I don’t stay in fancy hotels (and why a long paragraph was devoted to that, I’ll never know–perhaps an implication of some sort, but I’ve lost my psychic powers; it could be that I stay with family, in which case I do get to see the “real” PR) my reading of PR seems to show that most people are just barely getting by. If it takes less than 5k to get food stamps, I really don’t see where the “cheating” is coming in. Remember, that’s what started us on this trip–mass cheating/dependency. So, PRs are stealing—that’s what it is–money from the treasury but they really have plenty of income? Doubtful–if true, write the stories; you might win a Pulitzer.
I actually do agree that there’s the attitude of throwing “scraps” at PR–not a surprising fact, actually. In a sense, that’s irrelevant–the alternative is unthinkable (ie, are PRs going to reject this money?) Also, not unique to PR. No, it shouldnt be used to make people dependent; it should be used to allow people to eat on a daily basis. First survival, then the intellectuals can debate!
And why do you keep saying, “…that’s the reality of PR, whether you believe it or not”? Trust me, if its true, I’ll believe it; I may not want to, but facts are facts.
Lastly, it could be that to PRs, this isnt cheating at all–especially when you go back and see the enormous amount of money and wealth that left the island. A form of reparations, perhaps.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
“that you find it funny ….”
Huh? I find it funny? Where? I wont respond to this since its based on a “straw man” type of argument, and is not my position. I can see, though, how someone might get “annoyed.”
“…but it stands firm that many do
not. I can’t give you any official
documented information on that…” Ah, there’s the rub. Sort of contradictory, eh? I mean, we are supposed to believe that you have seen enough cheating (stealing) with an island of about 5m? Please. People who use food stamps/welfare are not cheating, they’re trying to survive, and if there are some that cheat/steal, so what? Prosecute them. This concern for the dependency of people, when the numbers show a horrible tale, sounds a bit disingenuous. What I’ve seen is a population struggling to survive day by day that has not had 5 minutes to decide its own fate in over 500 years.
Solutions? How about we start with independence? The bigger issue, of course, is what is misleadingly called “globalization,” which is nothing more than imperialism.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Your guess is way off–based on what, I’m not sure. But, I’ve been asked questions, so I’ll answer.
My politics are leftist—so, yes, I’d like a social welfare state, where social democracy is a fact, not just a theory. That to me is simply stating the obvious–all of us participate in the creation/sustaining of a state, and all of us should benefit from it. That is called “welfare dependency” but that is a result of right wing nonsense–the same folks who don’t see anything wrong when they benefit from the society through conections, political “contributions” (legalized bribery), get all worked up when its people, not corporations, receiving “help.” then they turn around and attack those who use social services. Don’t people realize how hard groups in society fought (literally) for these programs,under the idea that people shouldn’t starve? My view would be you first take care of those who contribute their labor, then if anything’s left over, you invite the rich to the table, so they can serve the rest of us!
If independence is something rejected by PRs, fine. That’s their choice. Then, statehood would be the better option–ELA is called colonialism.
Lastly, after all of this, I don’t think you’ve shown that there is this mass cheating/dependency going on–again, if there is, let people in charge know; after all, if you live in the US, it’s your (and mine) tax money being ripped off. I see an island that’s mired in poverty, due in no small part to centuries of extracted wealth with the collaboration of PR elites, while the majority of the population is seen as a bother.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
“….that’s the reality of PR, whether you believe it or not,” is somthing I didn’t say often in those EXACT WORDS.
The mass cheating are those that I have seen, and I don’t like what I see. Too many cheat, if you can’t see that and if you don’t know anyone in PR who cheats the USA government, then I can’t help you. Remember, the mark to be in foodstamps is about 5K, but that are those who TELL THE TRUTH of their income, many could LIE, and as I said constantly before, MANY DO LIE without the govt checking (I have stated why that is, before) thus the mass cheating. 🙂 I can’t exactly prove it in numbers, as I already stated why, which is a reasonable reason, but its just a simple look at it. Staying with family, secluded with the, is all fine and dandy, but get out a see the people around them, especially in El Campo.
You are right, many PRs, as I stated before, are struggling, but because of this mass dependency on a foreign govt, in exchange for corporate welfare and the destruction of their economy to stay a colony, is continuing to make those people suffer and struggle. Everything in PR is connected. You ever hear those Bochincheras talking about their cousin knows a friend who knows a friend whose ex-wife sister’s teacher’s former student know someone who was on TV filmed on SuperXclusivo. (know what that is?)
You want PR to be dependent on the USA, fine with me. Anyway, who brought foodstamps to PR for the first time anyway, and what was the TRUE reason for it, there, you will find the answer to your questions, and what I have been saying all along.
I agree with your politics, besides a MASS WELFARE STATE, where people have to depend on the government FOR EVERYTHING, without working for a dime of it. That is what I don’t want, but I do want the government to keep to the best intrests of the people, which, pretty much, the PNP in PR (know who they are?) have done the complete opposite. I am guessing you think I am a republican, lol, you are way off.
You want reperations? You sound like Johnny Cocrane, “if the glove don’t fit, you must aquit,” who wants reperations for slavery. IF PR is going to get any reperations, its going to be in the form of more dependency on the USA government, and me, contacting the USA govt, telling them PR’s chea tout on them, won’t be of much surprise. Nor, would it matter to them, when USA corporations, especially mult-national ones, such as Coca-Cola, Pepsi, and Wal-mart, (which just bought out Supermercado Amigos….know what that is?) are making much more of a profit, OFF of Puerto Ricans, then the USA is giving back to PR, while native PR businesses are souring without a care from either govt, so the ELA (you called that colonialism, you ar ejust right!) can maintain its ugly head on the surface of PR. 😀
P.S you stated you are on http://www.puertorico.com, what is your screen name there? I would just like to know, because I would like to continue this debate, and others there, because on there it is easier to post, and more interesting. In my opinion.
Remember, these arguements are nothign personal, just trying to prove my point and learn something while at it. We are Puerto Ricans (I am guessing you are Puerto Rican) and we need to improve the lives of our people. Which reminds me of another quesiton I asked you before, that you never answered, what do you think could be done to improve the lives of Boricuas, besides a mass WELFARE STATE?
Also, you didn’t exactly answer my quesiton. You already choose your detest for Estado Libre Asociado, but what would you have between the two? Estadidad o Independencia? I’m guessing estadidad, but that is just my assumption….:) Good day to you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
I just want to make one last comment, or a few, or many, before I head off….
I can see your point; you think that the Puerto Rican people should be able to obtain those food stamps and welfare benefits, because the big bad wolf (U.S.A) took so much wealth from Puerto Rico. Which, is understandable, when in 1898, about 93% of the land of PR were owned by Puerto Ricans, but by the 1930’s, that number dropped to about 40%. That is why Luis Muñoz MarÃn (his birthday was yesterday) started giving people some land when he started running things, but lets not get into him, or else things are really going to get heated, jajaja.
Anyway, back to the point, you want PR’s to enjoy the wealth that were so, cold-heartedly, taken from them. I agree with you, COMPLETELY. Except, you continue not to see my point. I believe that the people of PR should enjoy a good standard of living, enjoy the fruits of their labor, and be self-sufficient. (Remember this word, because that’s they key in unlocking the true reality of what PR is NOT, and how welfare from the USA is making that so!) I support social programs for puertorriqueños, but its how the programs are implemented, the reason behind them, and the impact it has on the peoples mentality, is what’s important.
You cannot just give people free money, WITHOUT supervising if they really need it or not. Then, things such as what is happening in PR now, whether you believe it or not, become worse. When people believe that if they loose their jobs, they can just lay back and reap the benefits of welfare as much as they like, and know that that it could be as long as they want, without a time limit, they are going to take that opportunity. (There is no time limit in welfare in PR, unlike many other places in the USA) Many Puerto Ricans have it rough, but lowering their self-esteem and just “throwing money” at them, without creating the jobs that needs to be created to draw the people OUT of welfare, is just asking for mass dependency.
WELFARE is not suppose to be permanent, which it is in PR, as I already proven with the numbers, 40% of the population are in MASS DEPENDENCY. (19% unemployment in PR, mostly due to the lack of self-sufficiency, and political status, and the lack of corporate welfare that is an replacement for that non-self-sufficiency, take note, I don’t support corporate welfare, especially sections 936, or 956, which I suggest you read up on) Social programs, such as unemployment benefits, or food stamps…etc, are suppose to be temporarily establishments so that a people, who really need them, and are given a background check, including net income, and house hold members who could work, can get back on their feet. In PR’s case, it is something that most people stay on for a long time, without receiving background checks. Some people are honest, but out of the some who are honest, how many do you think won’t be? How do I know? I have seen it all the time, and when you have 40% of the population on social services, which has been like that for about more then 30 YEARS, there’s a problem that needs to be dealt with.
The mass dependency on our island, shows, that the govt. simply doesn’t care to improve things, just as long as we are an ELA and we can take as much money as we want. While letting our own economy, people, and businesses rot in the sun so that we won’t look self-sufficient, and loose those benefits. That is wrong. I also agree, that in a social democracy, the people should receive the benefits of their LABOR, but in PR, those benefits of labor are going straight to the USA, and what the people get in return is welfare? Lets have it another way, lets have it so that they receive the befits of their labor, instead of free food stamps and money, that only lower the self-esteem of our people and dependency on the USA.
Understand what I am saying now? Welfare, should be used as something temporarily, and given with intelligence to those who really need it and has been proven to need it. Welfare, should not be taken by 40% of the population, nor about 20% of the government expenditures (Sila Calderón, la Gobernadora de Puerto Rico, budget plan for 2002-03 was about $21 billion, and about 4 billion was on welfare) should be wasted on it, while things that could lead the people AWAY from THAT KIND of welfare, such as job creation, employment benefits, reforms in the economy and education, are ignored, which are in PR now.
More can be done in PR, way more, and social programs are great, but the way they are being implemented in PR, is not the correct way, and it is becoming disastrous. I’m sorry if my writing is too much for you. If you still don’t understand where I am coming from, which clearly shows, I agree with you in some ways, but in PR’s case, it is totally different, then so be it. I tried; lets go to pr.com, jajaja.
Good luck, and have a nice day. 🙂
Welfare Reform
An end to welfare is a new beginning and opportunity to free ourselves of such a destructive force. Welfare only conditions people to give up hope and sel-determination. It feeds and controls you, thus manipulating the essence of your soul and spirit. Compare Puerto Rico with Cuba and you can clearly see the contradiction. For Welfare to be a positive force, it must be created by us, with a different purpose and goal – as the Jews did in the US. They maintain and offer an internal welfare system among themselves, among their communities, and its very successful. On the other hand, the welfare system you and I are exposed to, was not designed or developed by us – but for us and others like us. Libre is a word we all need to learn and appreciate, and share with our families.
Bad Times
Well…….I’m a bit dizzy, but here goes.
Firstly, my own view on food stamps is a bit radical–as far as I’m concerned, food for US citizens and its colonies should be FREE! After all, we subsidize farmers to the tune of hundreds of millions a year. So, in effect, e should all get food stamps or no one should–it should be free (well, maybe a little price for filet mignon). However, that’s tangential to this discussion.
Another point: why do you keep implying that I don’t visit the island, but that when I do go to PR I am “secluded with family”? Please, enough with that–we have a disagreement. That’s all. It has nothing to do with my going or not going around the island (besides, I can’t stand my family, but that’s another story). The same goes for SuperXclusivo and Supermercado Amigos. Or Seection 936. Or 956. Can we just assume I’m a genius, and leave it at that? Even if I didn’t know what these were, who cares? It would just mean that I don’t watch a lot of TV–which I don’t–and that I shop at mom and pop stores, not chain stores–which I do.
Again, the major disagreement is that you see welfare as social dependence. I disagree. I see it as a people with not much on an island, struggling to survive. If this is cheating, then so be it. What of all the cheating that went on there before welfare? Sometimes the arc of justice has to swing our way a little bit. Again, on an island with 4 or 5 million people (including the illegal Dominican population) how many cheat would be a relatively easy number to figure out (I know, I know the govt doesn’t want to look into this–well, so what? Did you expect they would? That’s not an excuse, just a starting point for investigation). And if there are no numbers, then the discussion in a sense is moot–without numbers all one has to go on is personal experience—and are we sure we want to get into a system where, without knowing particular circumastances, a brush is going to be used to label people as cheaters? Many cheat–how many, we don’t know, but we know that many cheat. Hmmm.
As to reparations, aside from the Johnny Cochran reference, yes I do hold in reparations, which comes from “repair.” It’s all fine and dandy to talk about how wrong one was in the past, but unless a repair is made, nothing is truly ever fixed. So yes, PR does deserve reparations–as does Latin America, Africa, etc. I mean, you don’t think the North-South economic divide is just there by coincidence, eh?
Many PRs are struggling because they cannot decide their own fate as a country–system of government is secondary to that fact. Self-sufficiency, by the way, is just one of those myths–we are ina global (or imperial) world, and no country can be self-sufficient. Neither can an individual! The sad fact of the matter is, that in a capitalist economy, a permanent underclass of poor is needed–that’s how the system works! (Another discussion for another day). So the question becomes what to do with them. The answer is you allow people to at least have something to eat, and have the whole society figure out better ways of living for all–if this comes to be seen as dependency, well……
Again, if you have this proof of MANY cheats, tell someone–after all, it’s my tax money & yours.
Well, that’s all I have for now. I know I’m probably missing something, but I am very assured you will advise if that is the case!
RE: Welfare Reform
So long as in this attempt to be “libre” we don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. Of course, we could also get rid of all other kinds of subsidizing that goes on in this country–WIC, food stamps, corporate welfare, tax breaks for the wealthy, overbloated military budgets, etc. In fact, we should reform the last three first, then go after the poor.
RE: Bad Times
jajajaja. You are very redical, all food for free? You already know I am going to disagree with that, so I’ll leave it at that.
Dude, I’m a democratic socialist, I get what you are saying. PR, un self-sufficient, dependent on USA money, is not helping PR, but clinging it closer to the USA. Thus, making it harder for PR to ever choose a permaneant status for the island, because this welfare money from the USA is keeping them in a middle situation. Understand what I am saying? It is not I am against the govt. helping out the people, but in PR’s special colonial case in the 21st century, different rules apply.
Also, those tax initiatives, is a reason why it will be hard for PR to be either independent or a state. That is why I am crazy with asking you whats your name in pr.com, first, to expand this discussion, and so you can read my other writings there. My name there, or former name, was Patria_y_LaPava. (yo soy independentista) I’ll find the thread, and put the URL here, that explains why statehood is a big no no and the factors for it.
I don’t think your a genius, and you don’t have to watch tv or shop at food chains to know what is happening on the island.
You are taking this to the “heart” and getting a little frustrated, don’t worry man, it’s just a dialogue on a contraversial factor in PR. PR politics can kill, but this is prdream.com, so don’t take things personal. If you arne’t, don’t take personal my assumption. jajaja
Good day to you. 🙂
RE: Welfare Reform
Now finally, someone has put something I have been saying all along, in a better way. jajaja
RE: RE: Bad Times
How many numbers do you want?
To know that 40% of the PR population is dependent on a colonizer’s money is enough.
Also, realzing that PR is one of the top ten consumer of USA products, and consumer corporations are tripping over themselves to expand and control operations in PR. They also recieve more then $19 Billion a year from island consumers (3.9 million people, 100,000+ included in that are the illegal Dominicanos, Cubanos, Mexicanos, Chinos…etc) is proof enough to realize that an island just trying to get by, (60% under the poverty rate) seems to enjoy spending, and has the money to spend as well….
RE: RE: RE: Bad Times
Here is the thread, under Patria_y_LaPava you will see an economic and common sense arguement on the point of PR statehood. That is one of many many many I have done, with different writing styles and figures in that forum, but this one, I particaly liked.
Also, to answer one of your comments, you may want reperations for all the countris in the world that have been exploited, and it seems just, but the chances of that happening, is very slime. A noble cause, ofcourse, but it will take a while, if ever.
RE: RE: Bad Times
“I don’t think your a genius”
Well—genius is unappreciated until after death
“you don’t have to watch tv or shop at food chains to know what is happening on the
island.” –Precisely my point.
Oh, I’m not getting “frustrated” Why cause myself stress?
As to the claim that welfare money is the most important thing keeping PR dependent on the US–methinks the problem is deeper than that–even with no welfare $, the problem would persist. It’s an issue of colonialism, of which welfare $ (assuming it’s so bad) is the tip of the iceberg.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Bad Times
So was voting for blacks and women in this country. As to reparations, the Southern countries have agitated for this now since at least the 1970s–a “noble cause” (isn’t this what Reagan said in 1981 about the US in Vietnam?) that has been articulated by many.
RE: Welfare Reform
Sure, but “libre” pales in comparison with one’s hungry children–besides, notions of “libre” don’tmean anything to one struggling to get by. No, let’s leave the poor alone, and try to uncorrupt the “souls” of those with the wealth, who oddly enough, keep telling the rest of us how dependent we are. We’re not dependent, so much as just trying to get by. Besides, it’s one of the most nauseating ideas that poor people don’t work. That’s the same scam mothers in the US have to face–mothering ain’t work, so go to work sweeping in city parks, so we don’t take away your food stamps. Ugh!
What will end welfare dependency (note how it almost sounds like drug addiction)? Better paying jobs–fixing our infrastructure, cleaning up the environment, building a world class rail system, fixing our school buildings, paying teachers 40-45K to start, health care for all……….
I guarantee, we have a full fledged, robust jobs program, the numbers of people needing a safety net will diminish.
THEN, I’ll state that the country (economically) is somewhat “libre.”
RE: RE: Welfare Reform
This was a general statement–hell, even I agree with it!
RE: RE: RE: bad times
Ok, I’ve exhausted this topic rather well.
To the webmaster: I’d like to see some topic on the following issues:
(a) Given that the 1990 census showed NYC PRs to be 50% or so of the NYC Latino population, and the 2000 census showed PRs to be at 35% or so, are we seeing the influence of PRs in NYC fade? Are other Latino groups (ie, Dominicans or Mexicans) having an easier time in NYC because of the PR pioneers?
(b) Given that the island of PR has a large number of Dominicans (many of them illegal) what type of relations exist among the two groups–both here in the US and on the island? Dominicans on the island complain about “ethnic” (or is it racial) profiling, discrimination, etc. Are they right? Are PRs dumping on a group they see as “below” them?
bad times
what happened to the discussions? they were old–from April. i thought i was in a time warp. glad to see new topics although Vieques must continue as a topic until we get out of this navy mess.
another mess is the end of the welfare rolls. under the feds people on welfare were given five years to find a job or some other kind of living situation — not dependent on welfare. those who wound up on workfare and didn’t find anything else or aren’t being hired by the companies they worked for are also out. i know a good part of the population in Puerto Rico is on welfare and so the effects will be devastating: hire unemployment, more crime, more drugs, more agitation towards…
maybe the navy will dangle an employment carrot at Puerto Rico while bush gives his approval to stay another millenium. sad.
RE: bad times
It should always be kept in mind that as poverty in America became brown or black, the attacks escalated–anyone remember Ronald Reagan’s “welfare queen,” who apparently drove a Cadillac and had six or seven kids? Twenty years later, we still don’t know who she was! Once whites became “convinced” that the black & brown portion of the population was cheating the country, a backlash occured. This in spite of the fact that the majority of people on welfare were white women with children. Of course, that wasn’t the point–the point was to deny those of color of any help, and if they (predictably) turned to “crime” then you lock them up. That’s how one deals with a “surplus” population in a democracy.
In light of recent bailouts of, for example, the airline industry, welfare must be defined carefully–it of course doesn’t refer to corporate welfare, but help to those of less fortunate. It’s similar to talking about crime in the streets without noting the crime in the suites.
RE: RE: bad times
To further expound, humbly, on the color issue Victor brings up and recontextualizes for us. The prisons are being and have been privatized in a manner that once more impacts the population of color in the U.S. Of course, this impacts Latinos and Puerto Ricans living here as well as in Puerto Rico. Within the colonial context, these private prisons become direct forms of abusing our people, falling outside the weak regulatory realm of the Puerto Rican government.
What on earth will Calderon do with the vanished social net on the island? What provisions have been made to handle this new onslaught. Perhaps the cooling down of the anti-Navy rhetoric points to a rapprochement that might lead to some form of aid. If not expect an explosive 2002 with violent confrontations, not only in Vieques but in different parts of Puerto Rico.
These are truly bad times.
RE: RE: RE: bad times
Mr Smith: don’t be so
humble! 🙂
I just finished a book called, Newjack–it’s about Sing Sing prison in NY, and the experiences of a reporter who becomes a guard for a year. He notes at one point that the population of the prison is 56% African-American, 30% Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) and 10% white. One is reminded of the African-American community hailing Bill Clinton as the first black President, while a few weeks after he left office, a Department of Justice report noted that more people of color ended up in prison during the 8 years of the Administration, than during the 8 years of the Reagan Administration–guess Bill felt our pain, eh?
RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
preach on!
On the scale of Operation Bootstrap
What is that supposed to mean?
With the worsening economy, comes the worsening of the society. People already live in fear, gated within their homes. More drugs, more robberies, more murders, more departures to the states. With the end of welfare, there will be a need for a new nationwide program and social agenda on the scale of Operation Bootstrap but addressing our new set of needs as and urban and suburban society.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
I don’t preach–I’m an atheist! 🙂
It will be interesting to see what we as a society do fot (or is it to?) those who were “encouraged” to get a job, thanks to Clinton’s welfare “reform”. Now that there’s a 5 year lifetime limit, will the current man in the White House show us his “compassionate” conservatism? Oh wait, that’s only for major industries, not the wokers!
RE: bad times
Now, Puerto Ricans can’t live in welfare they rest of their lives, can we? How could the destruction of welfare in PR give our people higher unemployment? The people are taking welfare because they are unemployed, or just like some extra cash…(wink wink) which ofcoiurse, is what the majority of Boricuas on welfare are doing. I think what you mean is a lower stabdard of living. OH NO! Boricuas can’t buy that 5th care and Direct Tv satellite now. awwwwwwwwww. LMAO
The crime only rises because of the way our police and govt work. Policemen don’t really care anymore, and that needs to be fixed as well as the Puerto Rican people respect for law enforcement.
The same goes for Drugs and PR’s colonial state in not being able to control immigration both legal and illegal and law enforcement is a contribution to that.
If the current welfare program in PR ( called coupones, as a commonwealth PR has welfare restriction, THANK GOD!) was destroyed and replaced with other, less lazyness supporting social programs, I would say, why not! It is a waste of the USA’s money and our peoples dignity, it is also keeping us away from full democratic rights and in this limbo we call “the free associated state!” Please! Some people might need the foodstamps, but most don’t, and thats a problem.
RE: RE: bad times
Of course, the fact that Puerto Ricans were always working is somewhat irrelevant. My impression seems to be that if not for social programs, PR would be in worse shape than it is now–that’s the result of a colonial structure. As to the majority of Puerto Ricans being on welfare for some “extra cash,” where’s your source for that statement? It’s that simple–just money (implying that we as a group are faking our poverty) that “Boricuas” take to buy a 5th car? Gee, I didn’t know we had that much wealth and were just holding on to it!
Given that as US workers, our wages haven’t kept up since the 1970s, what option is available to the country’s backwater (which is what PR is to the U.S.)? You go in, take over valuable land, kick out the workers who were barely surviving in the first place and then you turn around and blame them because of lazyness? Unbelievable.
I doubt the writer knows anybody who’s on welfare and buying a 5th, functioning car–this sounds like what Ronal Reagan used to say about the black “welfare queen” who had 12 kids and a Cadillac–she’s never been found.
RE: bad times
I know it is hard to get off the band wagon with all these freebies, but the time has come to step forward and respect ourselves as a people and more so for our women, who quickly learned from their mother’s and friends that welfare is the way to go. As a first generation Nuyorican growing up in the 1950’s, I believed that we would have progress to an elevated status.
Preach on!
That was just an expression! Oh and for the record, our current president’s policies does benifit the workers. It certainly benifits me a middle-class, conservative Republican African-American
female. I am glad that my hard earned tax dollars are being returned to me and not going to some failed social program. I can donate my hard earned dollars to causes that are near and dear to me and believe you me, I put my money where my mouth is.
RE: RE: bad times
Doubtful–Puerto Ricans were not considered much better than African Americans, were herded into crumbling neighborhoods, low wage factory jobs, and were considered to be dangerous and always carrying a knife (see West Side Story). Besides, where are the numbers? I mean, is the claim being made that once the mass migration to the U.S. occurred (after 1945 especially) Puerto Ricans went on welfare–and a large number of them? If that’s the claim, as a history major, I’d like to see the studies, please. After all, it shouldn’t be that hard to locate, right? If there is no proof, then I have to conclude the argument is based solely on episodic events (that is, you knew people who were on welfare, therefore all Puerto Ricans were on welfare). Speaking personally, the people I knew on welfare were not exactly rolling in dough, and in most cases, did need it.
END OF WELFARE %3D END OF CIVILIZATION
The end of welfare would have the same impact on Puerto Rico as it would in any other part of the world. I cannot think of any segment of society, at least civilized society, that is not significantly sustained by subidies from the public trough.
Welfare is nothing more than a mechanism to provide the population with the currency needed for the market place. Purchasing power is not enough to support corporate needs for manufacturing and expansion. Most salaries are not adequate to meet the needs of providing for house & home alone, not to mention luxuries like a night out at the movies.
Proponents of ending welfare (in any of its forms) are driven by biases ranging from racism, political precepts to an inability to imagine the very simplest paradigms. Just consider that in Puerto Rico, ‘cupones’ are actually used as currency. I mean, like, you can play the numbers with ‘cupones’ … and that is as it should be. Money is anything that we place enough trust in to render it legal tender … USD, Euros, Francs…Cupones.
Even if it has to be cashed in in the black market, it still translates into legal tender.
Until such time as societies can provide jobs for everyone, welfare will have to pick up the slack. Stop welfare and sit back & watch the market place come to a grinding halt.
RE: RE: RE: bad times
Been to Puerto Rico lately? As I already stated, yes there are many Puerto Ricans IN Puerto Rico who do need it, but there are also many who do not, need those copones. It is funny, many Boricuas complain about the conditons in Cuba, for some reason many Puerto Ricans are obsessed with Cuba, (im talking about the Puerto Ricans in PR not NYC or wherever) but the weird similarity is that Cubans wait in long lines to recieve rations and Puerto Ricans wait in long lines to recieve copones, lol. There are MANY Puerto Ricans who simply do not need it, how do I know? I am not oblivious to the realities of PR, and I know people, close people in PR who take welfare but simply don’t need it, some of them work and have jobs, but take that extra money, against regulation rules, to buy that extra car, to have that extra TV. Many Boricuas need it, but many do not, and thats the TRUTH, that if you deny, then I am not sure you even been to or lived in PR before. There are also many lazy Boricuas, who could get a job, but choose not to, and enjoy that unemployment componsation. I am not saying jobs are plentiful in PR, ofcourse not, but it is not as bad as people tend to think it is. Our colonial system and our politicans corruption skeams and fixation on the status question is also to blame on our mass dependency on the USA and on social programs, more could be done, and status is a part of that, but we could prepare to be more self-sufficient without rolling in that welfar emoney. Remember, in PR, ther eis not much regulaiton nor care for regulaiton, because it is free money from the “North American” nation, and thats a mentality that is rampant in PR, even in the govt, and thats a problem.
Sorry, Ronald Reagan, to me, is or was, due to his little mental disease, an un compassionate psycho, who saw commies under his bed, lol.
If you care so much, get up and do something about it, don’t be like Al Sharpton and just want welfare to take care of things, welfare makes people lazy, many need it, but many tend not to need it, and thats a FACT!
RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Basically, your argument rests on a flimsy basis: anectodes. I know people who cheat on taxes–should we get rid of the tax code? As to “many” of these people who don’t need social services, how many? Based on what? It’s also an arrogant attitude that declares that people using social services are “lazy”; in fact, most people, whether on social services or not, are not “lazy” all of the time.
As to PRs who admire Cuba, they’re probably admiring a small nation that has the highest rate of literacy in the Western Hemisphere, has been able to offer free medical care, free education and even sends doctors and teachers all throughout South America. Is it perfect? No, it’s headed by a dictator–though less horrible, on average, than some of the dictators we’ve supported throughout the decades.
RE: END OF WELFARE %3D END OF CIVILIZATION
The best book I ever read that really translated the impact of the welfare system was Cloward and Pivens “Regulating the Poor”. It really demonstrated how the economy constricts and contracts and this determines how the government keeps the poor poorer and the rich richer.
Thanks for the exerts.
DEAR ANA…
Ahhh, Piven & Cloward…what graduate school memories. Thanks for the memories, Ana.
My view is that currency is essentially currency. I think we can bring many of P&Cs precepts into question, but what cannot be indicted is the notion that you have to provide alternative currencies in an economy where not everyone has an opportunity to work. Oh, dont forget to add alternative markets as well; ie, the Underground Economy — which trades in legal tender of all forms.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Oh, and what is yours based on? Anecdotes as well. You stated so many times that all the people you know need it, guess what, that personal “experience” that you said to me, is an anecdote, and your arguements have not produced any official numbers, nor did mine. Why? Mainly because the PR government doesnt really does nor really care to do any real investigations to “cupones cheaters,” because its free money from the “Great North American nation,” and it is supposedly ok to be dependent on a larger nation, while our “insignificant” chiquetito isla is worth nothing to work hard for. (Can’t you feel the sarcasim? Warm and fuzy isn’t it? 🙂 )
Did I ever say that ALL people who use social services are lazy? If I did, then I stated NUMEROUS times in my last post, so you wouldn’t bring up that one little slip up again, that NOT ALL but some people who use public assistance tend to do it because they want that extra money. Many need it, as I said over and over again, constantly, to bring it straight to your head, but NOT ALL need it. If you are stating that ALL people who use public assistance NEEDS it, then that is an extremely exaggerated statement based on no facts, not even an anecdote, which is ALWAYS important when trying to prove an arguement.
All I am saying that there are things that we can do PAST WELFARE. To me, through personal experience, and living in NYC where Guliani, not the most perfect Mayor of NYC, but an intelligent one, decreased the welfare rolls from a whopping 500,000 to a few tens of thousands. How? He made them work for their checks, even cleaning the streets, every little job needs to be done and if you want that welfare check as much as a junkie wants his next fix, you have to work for it, even if you don’t want to work in that particular job, because working is good. Also, you are supposedly on welfare, because you couldn’t find a job, then the Mayor will find one for you. Similar programs has popped up in Chicago, which also has been successful. Also, now there is a limit on how long you can be on welfare.
Being dependent on foreign money is not a good thing, being dependent 100% on public money is not a good thing. Public money and foreign money should be used for certain things, but to make a people believe that they could recieve money without working without even trying.That is not a good thing to impose on a peoples mentality, because then you will have a welfare state, such as in PR.
There are many immigrants who come to PR, but it seems to be that most of them who use welfare are Puerto Ricans, and the already residential African-Americans. Why is that? Why are there so many Puerto Ricans on welfare, when there are other immigrants or people who need it way more in porportion to their population in the USA (remember, NOT ALL need it), such as Native Americans. Yes, PR’s are already American citizens when they arrive in the USA, giving them a chance to recieve that check, but do All of them need it? Do you see most Mexicanos or Dominicanos, when they first recieve their citizenship, jump towards the welfare office? I don’t think so.
That welfare state mentality sprung up in PR, and it was first mainly implemented by Luis A Ferré, (know who he is?) to make PR more dependent on the USA, and harder to become self-sufficient and detached from the USA.
Again, this welfare mentality is not working, NOT ALL people on welfare need it. We also need to go past the program of recieving a check in the mail without making sure thay person needs it, without recieving anything for it in return, and leaving the person to recieve that check as long as that person wants to. There needs to be a welfare reform, because in Cuba, (I never said PRs admire Cuba, I said PR’s are OBSESSED with Cuba, there is a BIG difference. Also, that OBSESSION is in the fact that MOST PRs are afraid of Communism, which I will conclude from anecdotes, unless you want to argue that MOST PRs’ WANT to be a Communist nation? LOL) they don’t have a welfare state that PR does. In Cuba they work, and work hard for Fidelito, and recieve the benefits they diserve, that I already known about.
I hope we can come to an understanding now, because it is becoming quit tiring in arguing something that is so obvious and true.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Also, welfare should be the LAST resort you take, after trying out all other opportunities you could take to spring you back up to economic recoverry and stability. That is another problem, many people, especially Boricuas, don’t do that. Once they are in financial trouble, they turn to welfare too soon, and that is another result of the welfare state mentality PR’s have recieved throughout the decades.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Also, Victor, has once stated to me “I doubt the writer knows anybody who’s
on welfare…” Which is intresting, because, he wrote that because he disagreed with my comments concerning welfare, then when I wrote and presented that I knew people who were on welfare, he wrote that my anecdotic arguements are flimsy. So, thus, because I disagreed with him, I had to be an outsider, with no anecdotes, but when I showed that I did have anecdotes, then those arguements were meaningless. So, what is Victor intrested in? Anecdotes or no anecdotes, because it seems to me, that even he isn’t sure, LOL!
I have already presented facts and numbers on my beliefs, besides anecdotes. My arguement is as full as it could be, and I already expressed my beliefs concerning welfare. That NOT everyone on it really really NEEDS it, that many people need to take the neccessary steps before jumping towards welfare, welfare should be the last resort, and there should be regulations on welfare and on the welfare state knows as Puerto Rico.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Well, we are all lucky the above was based not on anectodal information, but facts. “Many people……”
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Actually, if you’re going to quote me—not a bad thing—be accurate. Why not give the COMPLETE sentence? Here it is: “I doubt the writer knows anybody who’s
on welfare and buying a 5th, functioning
car–this sounds like what Ronal Reagan
used to say about the black “welfare
queen” who had 12 kids and a Cadillac-
she’s never been found.”
As far as I can tell, this statement still holds.
RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
So, here’s the “evidence”: There are MANY Puerto Ricans who simply
do not need it, how do I know? I am not
oblivious to the realities of PR, and I
know people, close people in PR who take
welfare but simply don’t need it, some
of them work and have jobs, but take
that extra money, against regulation
rules, to buy that extra car, to have
that extra TV. Many Boricuas need it,
but many do not, and thats the TRUTH…
Note the use of words like “many” NOT followed by how many–and out of how many total.
I think my travel agent would be amused to know I haven’t been to PR lately. That’s funny!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
“I have already presented facts and
numbers on my beliefs, besides anecdotes”
I might be dense, but please refer all of us to the post where “numbers” were given.
Here’s the challenge–all (or most) of these posts state in one way or another that “many” PRs are lazy, have a welfare mentality, cheat (or more accurately, steal) from the US treasury by having cupones when they don’t need them, etc. OK, what studies is this based on? Give specifics. These studies should, at a minimum, show: (a) how many PRs are on welfare, (b) whether they are in PR or in the US (c) out of how many–that is, is it 30% of the population, etc (d) whether or not there are indeed jobs that provide the same or a little higher level of income than they now have
One day perhaps we’ll take a look at corporate welfare and see which is more expensive to the nation. Ain’t it funny how those who rail against social welfare never seem alarmed at the corporate version of it? Sort of like complaining about crime in the streets, whilst ignoring crime in the suites—-a slogan for the recently “intelligent” Giuliani Administration.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
An elementary rule of logic: “He (or she) who asserts, must prove.”
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim–In the area of social science/analysis that is done through careful documentation/studies. This is an elementary point, and based on all written so far, the burden of proof has NOT been made.
As to this being “Obvious and true,” this is sort of like the discussions I have with believers in god, who can just never seem to provide concrete evidence as to what they believe, but still want you to take their irrational position seriously (I am not calling you irrational and illogical, mind you).
OK, gotta go now–the mailman just came with my cupones! 🙂
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
As far as you know, you don’t know anything about me. The statement is true, from what I have seen and experienced. Not exactly a 5th car, but 4. It happens all the time in Puerto Rico. It seems like every family memeber has to have their own mini van. jajajaja!!!!!!
On the issue of me being like Ronald Reagan, now thats a real joke! jajajajaj!!!!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
You want to see how many PR’s are in welfare in PR? Well, it is 60% of the population on the cupones. Those numbers have been given in El Nueva Dia, PR’s largest circulating newspaper for year, given by the government and the University of PR. You asking if there are jobs that can give them the income higher then what they recieve from cupones, (people in PR reciev e money ILLEGALLY by cashing in the foodstamps for money, do you think they are buying food with that money?????) they you must not really know PUERTO RICO. Jobs are not plentiful there, but there are jobs that can give higher incomes to the people, why, because in order to qualify for foodstamps, your income has to be higher then $4,800, and there are certaintly jobs in PR higher then that. Such as government jobs, which most people work in, or manufactoring jobs.
Anyway, as I stated so many times already, more can be done in PR, besides giving out free money. CREATE JOBS, not lazyness!
On the issue of corporate welfare, that is another think that is destroying PR. Ever hear of section 936, section 3A, section 956 of the Internal Revenue Code. I am not AGAINST social welfare, it is how it is implemented and regulated in a society that counts, and the welfare in PR is something to make the people dependent and “happy” with their colonial status.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
I can see you are becoming annoyed. jajajaja Don’t take think personaly, I am just defending what I believe in, and what is true. I don’t find it amusing though, that you find it funny that so many Puerto Ricans, about 60% of the people, are on welfare, and 40% and about that same amount are under the poverty line. Or that our infant mortality rate is about 11 death from 1,000 births, or 27% of our Boricua mothers didn’t even finish H.S. Or maybe because 1/6 of our female population are sterilized, our crime rate is higher then the USA with more then 25 death per 1,000 people in such a small island. Or because 90% of those crimes are drug related, where Puerto Rico can’t even control immigration of any kind, because of our political status. Enough numbers for you? All recieved from El Nuevo DÃa, Puerto Rico’s police department, Departemento de la Salud, y Departamento de la Familia. Including the anecdotes I have offered to you.
The issue of welfare in PR has many origins. Many people are poor, and do need it, but it stands firm that many do not. I can’t give you any official documented information on that, because remember, as I stated before, the PR government (which supports the commonwealth, Partido Popular Democrático) does not care to document on how many people cheat the system. What I have seen there through my own eyes, is more then a person who claim ther eis a God can ever experience.
I do know, that the origins of the use of cupones is somethign that need to be dealt with, and just “throwing” money at it and thinking it will go away, without actually fixing the problem, is not the solution.
Lets try this, what do you think need to be improved in Puerto Rico? 🙂
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
As far as you know, you don’t know
anything about me. The statement is true
from what I have seen and experienced.
Not exactly a 5th car, but 4. It happens
all the time in Puerto Rico. It seems
like every family memeber has to have
their own mini van. jajajaja!!!!!!
On the issue of me being like Ronald
Reagan, now thats a real joke! jajajajaj
!!!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
In my educated guess through experience, I would say maybe 20-30% out of the 60% that are on welfare. Just go to any supermarket in PR (hands on experience for a foreigner) and ask how many people a day, come in, to cash in their foodstamps, or just ask the people who are on foodstamps, (that will not be hard, there are just sooo many, jajajaja) and the answer will be surprising.
Anyway, visiting PR on a nice travel to the beaches in Isla Verde, El Condado, Flamenco, or la Playa de Fajardo while you are staying in the Ponce Hilton, or El Conquistador resort, while nic ehikes in El Yunque rainforest, while site seeing in Viejo San Juan is not exactly seeing the REAL Puerto Rico, through all its troubles and social tradegies. Yes, you might of seen through a Caserio (Know what that is?) on the highway on your way to Plaza Las Americas (then it would of been Llornes Torres, which is very infamous in San Juan and PR) or seen La Perla while you were in El Morro, but go to the “heart” of PR. (not exactly Caguas, which nickname is “El Corazón de Puerto Rico”) Such as towns as San Lorenzo, Juncos, LoÃza Aldea, especially, and I don’t exactly mean the beaches, and you will see the real PR and its people. TALK WITH them. (assuming you haven’t, you have, then good for you, continue to talk to them, for that they are the real people of PR who need help besides experimental money from the USA who just want them to be dependent and shut up about it) What you will hear, will only verify what I have been telling you.
Anyway, off the subject, from your last statement, I have inferred that you have been to PR lately. Which part of PR, let it be city, or site, is your favorite. My favorite city would have to be “El Corazón de Puerto Rico.” 🙂
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
I would like to point out a mistake on my part. I stated before, that 60% of the PR population is on welfare, and 40% are under the poverty line. Those numbers are SWITCHED. More then 40% of the PR population are on welfare, and more then 60% of the PR population are under the poverty line. Anyone with an income lower then about $9,800 are under the poverty line. Anyone whose income is under about $4,800 are qualified to recieve foodstamps. Except, remembe,r people cheat and lie, just as people do on their income tax returns in the USA, which is easy, and in PR, they don’t even really check.
This website http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/indicators01/apa-FS.htm only confirms the mass dependency on foodstamps in Puerto Rico. More then 1.3 million people were on welfare in PR during the year of 1999, and during that time the population of PR was more then 3.5 million. Now that is more extreme then any other state, then maybe the District of Colombia, porportionate from the people on welfare to the population.
As, I stated before, I am not against social welfare, but there are different kinds of social welfare. Social welfare should be used to ease the woes of financial troubles of the people, temporarily, or permaneantly, dependening the type of welfare, such as free medical care or education. It SHOULD NOT, be used to send the people into MASS dependency on a FOREIGN government, as a permaneant form of trickery so that the people can be “happy” and “grateful” that money is being “thrown” at them, at the expense of their dignity, and the scapecoat of the real origins of the problems they have that sends them to welfare. Which, ofcourse, is not being dealt with in PR, and now, because of the new wave of surfaced corruption, things has been realized worse then previously thought. What is being done to solve that problem, very little, what is being done, is more money is being thrown at it without a REAL plan to solve it, nor a plan to actually make the money themselves, instead of begging Uncle Sam for some change.
Understand where I am getting at. It is not that I a against the helping of the working class, it is that I am against the dependency of the working class on something that is destroying their dignity, and their nation, while it is being used as a scapecoat of their REAL PROBLEMS and social consern. That is the reality of Puerto Rico, whether you believe it or not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Now, here is a question that I would like to ask you, off the subject.
What is your political ideology? Meaning, if your a neoliberalist conservative, centralist, social democrat, liberatarian…etc?
Also, what would you like as a political status for Puerto Rico?
From my guess, if I may give one, is that you support statehood for PR. Mainly, because of the welfare benefits and dependency on the USA. Maybe your not a “penepe,” but a “populares” supporting the commonwealth. Independentista, I am not sure, unless you want a soverign welfare state.
Just a question, to really understand where you stand. Oh, and have youe ver been to http://www.puertorico.com before? I think the political section will satisfy your need for arguements on the socioeconomical conditions of PR. Go and join there, it is a great site. 🙂
I hope this open dialogue discussion hasn’t become personal, because that is not my intentions. My intentions is to present to you what I have seen and experience in PR, the reality of the island, and the truth of welfare ON THE ISLAND, while BOTH of us learning something from it at the same time. 🙂
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
The statement is similar to Reagan’s. (sigh)
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Hallelujah! Some figures!
No one disagrees with the numbers–I just wanted to see what figures you would quote.
This just strengthens my point: if 40% are on welfare—and one needs to earn below 10K a year, then where’s the mass cheating? Are there many (and if so, how many) people on welfare who dont need it? Since I don’t stay in fancy hotels (and why a long paragraph was devoted to that, I’ll never know–perhaps an implication of some sort, but I’ve lost my psychic powers; it could be that I stay with family, in which case I do get to see the “real” PR) my reading of PR seems to show that most people are just barely getting by. If it takes less than 5k to get food stamps, I really don’t see where the “cheating” is coming in. Remember, that’s what started us on this trip–mass cheating/dependency. So, PRs are stealing—that’s what it is–money from the treasury but they really have plenty of income? Doubtful–if true, write the stories; you might win a Pulitzer.
I actually do agree that there’s the attitude of throwing “scraps” at PR–not a surprising fact, actually. In a sense, that’s irrelevant–the alternative is unthinkable (ie, are PRs going to reject this money?) Also, not unique to PR. No, it shouldnt be used to make people dependent; it should be used to allow people to eat on a daily basis. First survival, then the intellectuals can debate!
And why do you keep saying, “…that’s the reality of PR, whether you believe it or not”? Trust me, if its true, I’ll believe it; I may not want to, but facts are facts.
Lastly, it could be that to PRs, this isnt cheating at all–especially when you go back and see the enormous amount of money and wealth that left the island. A form of reparations, perhaps.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
“that you find it funny ….”
Huh? I find it funny? Where? I wont respond to this since its based on a “straw man” type of argument, and is not my position. I can see, though, how someone might get “annoyed.”
“…but it stands firm that many do
not. I can’t give you any official
documented information on that…” Ah, there’s the rub. Sort of contradictory, eh? I mean, we are supposed to believe that you have seen enough cheating (stealing) with an island of about 5m? Please. People who use food stamps/welfare are not cheating, they’re trying to survive, and if there are some that cheat/steal, so what? Prosecute them. This concern for the dependency of people, when the numbers show a horrible tale, sounds a bit disingenuous. What I’ve seen is a population struggling to survive day by day that has not had 5 minutes to decide its own fate in over 500 years.
Solutions? How about we start with independence? The bigger issue, of course, is what is misleadingly called “globalization,” which is nothing more than imperialism.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
Your guess is way off–based on what, I’m not sure. But, I’ve been asked questions, so I’ll answer.
My politics are leftist—so, yes, I’d like a social welfare state, where social democracy is a fact, not just a theory. That to me is simply stating the obvious–all of us participate in the creation/sustaining of a state, and all of us should benefit from it. That is called “welfare dependency” but that is a result of right wing nonsense–the same folks who don’t see anything wrong when they benefit from the society through conections, political “contributions” (legalized bribery), get all worked up when its people, not corporations, receiving “help.” then they turn around and attack those who use social services. Don’t people realize how hard groups in society fought (literally) for these programs,under the idea that people shouldn’t starve? My view would be you first take care of those who contribute their labor, then if anything’s left over, you invite the rich to the table, so they can serve the rest of us!
If independence is something rejected by PRs, fine. That’s their choice. Then, statehood would be the better option–ELA is called colonialism.
And yes, I have joined http://www.puertorico.com
Lastly, after all of this, I don’t think you’ve shown that there is this mass cheating/dependency going on–again, if there is, let people in charge know; after all, if you live in the US, it’s your (and mine) tax money being ripped off. I see an island that’s mired in poverty, due in no small part to centuries of extracted wealth with the collaboration of PR elites, while the majority of the population is seen as a bother.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
“….that’s the reality of PR, whether you believe it or not,” is somthing I didn’t say often in those EXACT WORDS.
The mass cheating are those that I have seen, and I don’t like what I see. Too many cheat, if you can’t see that and if you don’t know anyone in PR who cheats the USA government, then I can’t help you. Remember, the mark to be in foodstamps is about 5K, but that are those who TELL THE TRUTH of their income, many could LIE, and as I said constantly before, MANY DO LIE without the govt checking (I have stated why that is, before) thus the mass cheating. 🙂 I can’t exactly prove it in numbers, as I already stated why, which is a reasonable reason, but its just a simple look at it. Staying with family, secluded with the, is all fine and dandy, but get out a see the people around them, especially in El Campo.
You are right, many PRs, as I stated before, are struggling, but because of this mass dependency on a foreign govt, in exchange for corporate welfare and the destruction of their economy to stay a colony, is continuing to make those people suffer and struggle. Everything in PR is connected. You ever hear those Bochincheras talking about their cousin knows a friend who knows a friend whose ex-wife sister’s teacher’s former student know someone who was on TV filmed on SuperXclusivo. (know what that is?)
You want PR to be dependent on the USA, fine with me. Anyway, who brought foodstamps to PR for the first time anyway, and what was the TRUE reason for it, there, you will find the answer to your questions, and what I have been saying all along.
I agree with your politics, besides a MASS WELFARE STATE, where people have to depend on the government FOR EVERYTHING, without working for a dime of it. That is what I don’t want, but I do want the government to keep to the best intrests of the people, which, pretty much, the PNP in PR (know who they are?) have done the complete opposite. I am guessing you think I am a republican, lol, you are way off.
You want reperations? You sound like Johnny Cocrane, “if the glove don’t fit, you must aquit,” who wants reperations for slavery. IF PR is going to get any reperations, its going to be in the form of more dependency on the USA government, and me, contacting the USA govt, telling them PR’s chea tout on them, won’t be of much surprise. Nor, would it matter to them, when USA corporations, especially mult-national ones, such as Coca-Cola, Pepsi, and Wal-mart, (which just bought out Supermercado Amigos….know what that is?) are making much more of a profit, OFF of Puerto Ricans, then the USA is giving back to PR, while native PR businesses are souring without a care from either govt, so the ELA (you called that colonialism, you ar ejust right!) can maintain its ugly head on the surface of PR. 😀
P.S you stated you are on http://www.puertorico.com, what is your screen name there? I would just like to know, because I would like to continue this debate, and others there, because on there it is easier to post, and more interesting. In my opinion.
Remember, these arguements are nothign personal, just trying to prove my point and learn something while at it. We are Puerto Ricans (I am guessing you are Puerto Rican) and we need to improve the lives of our people. Which reminds me of another quesiton I asked you before, that you never answered, what do you think could be done to improve the lives of Boricuas, besides a mass WELFARE STATE?
Also, you didn’t exactly answer my quesiton. You already choose your detest for Estado Libre Asociado, but what would you have between the two? Estadidad o Independencia? I’m guessing estadidad, but that is just my assumption….:) Good day to you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bad times
I just want to make one last comment, or a few, or many, before I head off….
I can see your point; you think that the Puerto Rican people should be able to obtain those food stamps and welfare benefits, because the big bad wolf (U.S.A) took so much wealth from Puerto Rico. Which, is understandable, when in 1898, about 93% of the land of PR were owned by Puerto Ricans, but by the 1930’s, that number dropped to about 40%. That is why Luis Muñoz MarÃn (his birthday was yesterday) started giving people some land when he started running things, but lets not get into him, or else things are really going to get heated, jajaja.
Anyway, back to the point, you want PR’s to enjoy the wealth that were so, cold-heartedly, taken from them. I agree with you, COMPLETELY. Except, you continue not to see my point. I believe that the people of PR should enjoy a good standard of living, enjoy the fruits of their labor, and be self-sufficient. (Remember this word, because that’s they key in unlocking the true reality of what PR is NOT, and how welfare from the USA is making that so!) I support social programs for puertorriqueños, but its how the programs are implemented, the reason behind them, and the impact it has on the peoples mentality, is what’s important.
You cannot just give people free money, WITHOUT supervising if they really need it or not. Then, things such as what is happening in PR now, whether you believe it or not, become worse. When people believe that if they loose their jobs, they can just lay back and reap the benefits of welfare as much as they like, and know that that it could be as long as they want, without a time limit, they are going to take that opportunity. (There is no time limit in welfare in PR, unlike many other places in the USA) Many Puerto Ricans have it rough, but lowering their self-esteem and just “throwing money” at them, without creating the jobs that needs to be created to draw the people OUT of welfare, is just asking for mass dependency.
WELFARE is not suppose to be permanent, which it is in PR, as I already proven with the numbers, 40% of the population are in MASS DEPENDENCY. (19% unemployment in PR, mostly due to the lack of self-sufficiency, and political status, and the lack of corporate welfare that is an replacement for that non-self-sufficiency, take note, I don’t support corporate welfare, especially sections 936, or 956, which I suggest you read up on) Social programs, such as unemployment benefits, or food stamps…etc, are suppose to be temporarily establishments so that a people, who really need them, and are given a background check, including net income, and house hold members who could work, can get back on their feet. In PR’s case, it is something that most people stay on for a long time, without receiving background checks. Some people are honest, but out of the some who are honest, how many do you think won’t be? How do I know? I have seen it all the time, and when you have 40% of the population on social services, which has been like that for about more then 30 YEARS, there’s a problem that needs to be dealt with.
The mass dependency on our island, shows, that the govt. simply doesn’t care to improve things, just as long as we are an ELA and we can take as much money as we want. While letting our own economy, people, and businesses rot in the sun so that we won’t look self-sufficient, and loose those benefits. That is wrong. I also agree, that in a social democracy, the people should receive the benefits of their LABOR, but in PR, those benefits of labor are going straight to the USA, and what the people get in return is welfare? Lets have it another way, lets have it so that they receive the befits of their labor, instead of free food stamps and money, that only lower the self-esteem of our people and dependency on the USA.
Understand what I am saying now? Welfare, should be used as something temporarily, and given with intelligence to those who really need it and has been proven to need it. Welfare, should not be taken by 40% of the population, nor about 20% of the government expenditures (Sila Calderón, la Gobernadora de Puerto Rico, budget plan for 2002-03 was about $21 billion, and about 4 billion was on welfare) should be wasted on it, while things that could lead the people AWAY from THAT KIND of welfare, such as job creation, employment benefits, reforms in the economy and education, are ignored, which are in PR now.
More can be done in PR, way more, and social programs are great, but the way they are being implemented in PR, is not the correct way, and it is becoming disastrous. I’m sorry if my writing is too much for you. If you still don’t understand where I am coming from, which clearly shows, I agree with you in some ways, but in PR’s case, it is totally different, then so be it. I tried; lets go to pr.com, jajaja.
Good luck, and have a nice day. 🙂
Welfare Reform
An end to welfare is a new beginning and opportunity to free ourselves of such a destructive force. Welfare only conditions people to give up hope and sel-determination. It feeds and controls you, thus manipulating the essence of your soul and spirit. Compare Puerto Rico with Cuba and you can clearly see the contradiction. For Welfare to be a positive force, it must be created by us, with a different purpose and goal – as the Jews did in the US. They maintain and offer an internal welfare system among themselves, among their communities, and its very successful. On the other hand, the welfare system you and I are exposed to, was not designed or developed by us – but for us and others like us. Libre is a word we all need to learn and appreciate, and share with our families.
Bad Times
Well…….I’m a bit dizzy, but here goes.
Firstly, my own view on food stamps is a bit radical–as far as I’m concerned, food for US citizens and its colonies should be FREE! After all, we subsidize farmers to the tune of hundreds of millions a year. So, in effect, e should all get food stamps or no one should–it should be free (well, maybe a little price for filet mignon). However, that’s tangential to this discussion.
Another point: why do you keep implying that I don’t visit the island, but that when I do go to PR I am “secluded with family”? Please, enough with that–we have a disagreement. That’s all. It has nothing to do with my going or not going around the island (besides, I can’t stand my family, but that’s another story). The same goes for SuperXclusivo and Supermercado Amigos. Or Seection 936. Or 956. Can we just assume I’m a genius, and leave it at that? Even if I didn’t know what these were, who cares? It would just mean that I don’t watch a lot of TV–which I don’t–and that I shop at mom and pop stores, not chain stores–which I do.
Again, the major disagreement is that you see welfare as social dependence. I disagree. I see it as a people with not much on an island, struggling to survive. If this is cheating, then so be it. What of all the cheating that went on there before welfare? Sometimes the arc of justice has to swing our way a little bit. Again, on an island with 4 or 5 million people (including the illegal Dominican population) how many cheat would be a relatively easy number to figure out (I know, I know the govt doesn’t want to look into this–well, so what? Did you expect they would? That’s not an excuse, just a starting point for investigation). And if there are no numbers, then the discussion in a sense is moot–without numbers all one has to go on is personal experience—and are we sure we want to get into a system where, without knowing particular circumastances, a brush is going to be used to label people as cheaters? Many cheat–how many, we don’t know, but we know that many cheat. Hmmm.
As to reparations, aside from the Johnny Cochran reference, yes I do hold in reparations, which comes from “repair.” It’s all fine and dandy to talk about how wrong one was in the past, but unless a repair is made, nothing is truly ever fixed. So yes, PR does deserve reparations–as does Latin America, Africa, etc. I mean, you don’t think the North-South economic divide is just there by coincidence, eh?
Many PRs are struggling because they cannot decide their own fate as a country–system of government is secondary to that fact. Self-sufficiency, by the way, is just one of those myths–we are ina global (or imperial) world, and no country can be self-sufficient. Neither can an individual! The sad fact of the matter is, that in a capitalist economy, a permanent underclass of poor is needed–that’s how the system works! (Another discussion for another day). So the question becomes what to do with them. The answer is you allow people to at least have something to eat, and have the whole society figure out better ways of living for all–if this comes to be seen as dependency, well……
Again, if you have this proof of MANY cheats, tell someone–after all, it’s my tax money & yours.
Well, that’s all I have for now. I know I’m probably missing something, but I am very assured you will advise if that is the case!
RE: Welfare Reform
So long as in this attempt to be “libre” we don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. Of course, we could also get rid of all other kinds of subsidizing that goes on in this country–WIC, food stamps, corporate welfare, tax breaks for the wealthy, overbloated military budgets, etc. In fact, we should reform the last three first, then go after the poor.
RE: Bad Times
jajajaja. You are very redical, all food for free? You already know I am going to disagree with that, so I’ll leave it at that.
Dude, I’m a democratic socialist, I get what you are saying. PR, un self-sufficient, dependent on USA money, is not helping PR, but clinging it closer to the USA. Thus, making it harder for PR to ever choose a permaneant status for the island, because this welfare money from the USA is keeping them in a middle situation. Understand what I am saying? It is not I am against the govt. helping out the people, but in PR’s special colonial case in the 21st century, different rules apply.
Also, those tax initiatives, is a reason why it will be hard for PR to be either independent or a state. That is why I am crazy with asking you whats your name in pr.com, first, to expand this discussion, and so you can read my other writings there. My name there, or former name, was Patria_y_LaPava. (yo soy independentista) I’ll find the thread, and put the URL here, that explains why statehood is a big no no and the factors for it.
I don’t think your a genius, and you don’t have to watch tv or shop at food chains to know what is happening on the island.
You are taking this to the “heart” and getting a little frustrated, don’t worry man, it’s just a dialogue on a contraversial factor in PR. PR politics can kill, but this is prdream.com, so don’t take things personal. If you arne’t, don’t take personal my assumption. jajaja
Good day to you. 🙂
RE: Welfare Reform
Now finally, someone has put something I have been saying all along, in a better way. jajaja
RE: RE: Bad Times
How many numbers do you want?
To know that 40% of the PR population is dependent on a colonizer’s money is enough.
Also, realzing that PR is one of the top ten consumer of USA products, and consumer corporations are tripping over themselves to expand and control operations in PR. They also recieve more then $19 Billion a year from island consumers (3.9 million people, 100,000+ included in that are the illegal Dominicanos, Cubanos, Mexicanos, Chinos…etc) is proof enough to realize that an island just trying to get by, (60% under the poverty rate) seems to enjoy spending, and has the money to spend as well….
RE: RE: RE: Bad Times
Here is the thread, under Patria_y_LaPava you will see an economic and common sense arguement on the point of PR statehood. That is one of many many many I have done, with different writing styles and figures in that forum, but this one, I particaly liked.
http://www.puertorico.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid%3D7638
Also, to answer one of your comments, you may want reperations for all the countris in the world that have been exploited, and it seems just, but the chances of that happening, is very slime. A noble cause, ofcourse, but it will take a while, if ever.
RE: RE: Bad Times
“I don’t think your a genius”
Well—genius is unappreciated until after death
“you don’t have to watch tv or shop at food chains to know what is happening on the
island.” –Precisely my point.
Oh, I’m not getting “frustrated” Why cause myself stress?
As to the claim that welfare money is the most important thing keeping PR dependent on the US–methinks the problem is deeper than that–even with no welfare $, the problem would persist. It’s an issue of colonialism, of which welfare $ (assuming it’s so bad) is the tip of the iceberg.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Bad Times
So was voting for blacks and women in this country. As to reparations, the Southern countries have agitated for this now since at least the 1970s–a “noble cause” (isn’t this what Reagan said in 1981 about the US in Vietnam?) that has been articulated by many.
RE: Welfare Reform
Sure, but “libre” pales in comparison with one’s hungry children–besides, notions of “libre” don’tmean anything to one struggling to get by. No, let’s leave the poor alone, and try to uncorrupt the “souls” of those with the wealth, who oddly enough, keep telling the rest of us how dependent we are. We’re not dependent, so much as just trying to get by. Besides, it’s one of the most nauseating ideas that poor people don’t work. That’s the same scam mothers in the US have to face–mothering ain’t work, so go to work sweeping in city parks, so we don’t take away your food stamps. Ugh!
What will end welfare dependency (note how it almost sounds like drug addiction)? Better paying jobs–fixing our infrastructure, cleaning up the environment, building a world class rail system, fixing our school buildings, paying teachers 40-45K to start, health care for all……….
I guarantee, we have a full fledged, robust jobs program, the numbers of people needing a safety net will diminish.
THEN, I’ll state that the country (economically) is somewhat “libre.”
RE: RE: Welfare Reform
This was a general statement–hell, even I agree with it!
RE: RE: RE: bad times
Ok, I’ve exhausted this topic rather well.
To the webmaster: I’d like to see some topic on the following issues:
(a) Given that the 1990 census showed NYC PRs to be 50% or so of the NYC Latino population, and the 2000 census showed PRs to be at 35% or so, are we seeing the influence of PRs in NYC fade? Are other Latino groups (ie, Dominicans or Mexicans) having an easier time in NYC because of the PR pioneers?
(b) Given that the island of PR has a large number of Dominicans (many of them illegal) what type of relations exist among the two groups–both here in the US and on the island? Dominicans on the island complain about “ethnic” (or is it racial) profiling, discrimination, etc. Are they right? Are PRs dumping on a group they see as “below” them?