41 thoughts on “What are Puerto Rican attitudes towards gays and lesbians?”
Gays & Lesbians
Unfortunmately, though there is much improvement, ther’s still the notion that these folks are not real men or women. Part of it derives from the unfortunate Catholic/Protestant heritage left from the Spanish, and its historical insistence that homosexuality is a “sin.” That’s what happens when you wed any outlook to a religious viewpoint that has no validity, but that’s another topic. (Here’s a great forum question: why are there very few Latino atheists or agnostics, anyway?)
RE: Gays & Lesbians
Sorry–must’ve hit the wrong button and posted before I was finished. As I was writing, I remember during the 1980s when the AIDS epidemic began its course, how many PRs in their 20s and 30s died of “pneumonia”–it was a loss of face for families to have homosexuals. If truth be told, who knows what portion of PRs are gay? Is homophobia still extensive in PR families? Are there differences between attitudes of Boricuas on the mainland vs. the island? Age /cultural differences? Do we PR men still have this machismo nonsense that sees homosexuals as a threat to our “manhood”?
Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
It doesn’t seem like this is a particularly popular topic. I wonder why. And I wonder if a distinction can be drawn between the threat to masculinity that male homosexuality poses and the threat, if any, that female homosexuality poses? It seems that when people talk about gays they are imagining homosexual men and never women. Are Puerto Rican lesbians a threat to Puerto Rican masculinity?
RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
If you think this is unpopular, wait till the antiChristian post. 🙂
I hope you’re not right about this being an unpopular post. Let’s hope it’s just that people are busy.
BTW, my post includes men and women. However, I have no problem with considering the questions separately.
RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
Clara,
You’ve made a keen observation about the lack of interest in this topic. One can deduce from this silence that we Puerto Ricans are very uncomfortable with such a discussion.
Why? What are we afraid of? We show great courage fighting the colonialism of the U.S. Yet, we can’t admit to ourselves that there are many gay and lesbian Puerto Ricans. What’s the source of this shame?
RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
Amigos: No creo que el hombre puertorriqueño heterosexual se sienta amenazado por la homosexualidad de otro.
Creo, como Víctor, que parte de la homofobia boricua se debe a la insistencia (tanto católica como protestante) de que el homosexualismo es un pecado. Esto a calado muy hondo en la conciencia colectiva del pueblo puertorriqueño y una forma de atacar al homosexual y a la lesbiana es, por ejemplo, con la burla. ¿Se han fijado que muchos chistes de homosexuales hay en Puerto Rico? He notado que entre los puertorriqueños que viven o se han criado en los EE.UU. esto es practicamente inexistente. En cuanto a la pregunta de Víctor sobre el agnostisismo y ateísmo, me parece que, en parte, la respuesta es la misma; el fuerte arraigo que ha tenido en Puerto Rico la iglesia, particularmente la católica, la cual ha sido parte inseparable en la formación de la idiosincracia y visón de mundo del puertorriqueño. A esto yo añadiría que en nuestro querido Puerto Rico, la gente en general, el pueblo, no ha desarrollado, por las razones que sean, una cultura de la lectura. (por ejemplo los gringos leen mas que nosotros. Aunque sean los muñequitos de las tirillas cómicas) De estudiar y superarse intelectualmente. Esto de nuevo,de manera GENERAL, es referente al público boricua que vive y se ha criado en P.R. Por el contrario, los que estan en los EE.UU. tal vez aunque no lean, al menos tienen contacto con otras culturas y otras mentalidades mas tolerantes en ambos respectos, dándole asi al boricua en los EE.UU. una visión diferente que humaniza a los homosexuales (y tambien a los ateos y agnosticos) a la cual no tendrían exposición en el mismo P.R. o al menos no de la misma manera o de una forma mas amplia.
RE: RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
I think both you and Ivan have made excellent, excellent points. Thank you both!
What about gay marriage and equal rights for gays?
It seems to me that discussing homosexuality in the abstract is not really constructive or useful at all. To really weigh in for or against homosexual practices one really must consider the activities of these men and women in real terms. One of which is this whole marriage issue that has been in American media a great deal. Do people think there will be homosexual marriages in Puerto Rico? What happens to gays now in Puerto Rico? How are they treated by their families and the communities down there? How are they treated by the police? Are there laws now that protect their rights? These are the questions that we should be discussing–not attitudes. Attitudes are too elusive or really abstract. Give me the blood and guts of what we’re talking about.
RE: What about gay marriage and equal rights for gays?
Except that the “attitudes” you wish to minimize are manifested in behavior. Thus, clarifying the attitudes goes a long way towards clarifying the behavior/laws that spring from said attitudes. However, I do agree that your questions are more “concrete,” whatever that might mean.
A PR QUEER
Being Puerto Rican and gay and born in the US (Massachusetts), I find myself pressured to “choose sides” –either my “lifestyle” or my “family”. What this means is that I am challenged to be either PR or gay. The only way I can see myself fitting into both is to adopt some sort of “feminized” social posture: as entertainment for straight people (una loca), or more practically(!) as a hairdresser or caregiver. Because I came out, did not apologize, and basically did what I wanted, I have been forced out (gently, indirectly) as a full-fledged family member. It does not help that I am also an agnostic/atheist anticlerical type — and this from someone with Catholic education from Grade 1 – high school seminary! That’s it for now…
RE: A PR QUEER
At the risk of sound platitudinous, thanks for sharing. It must really be painful to feel your family withdraw their affection simply because you come out. What real difference does it make when you are out? Could you be a little more specific about, let’s say, your father’s reaction or your mother’s? Have you seen the NUYORICAN CINEMA section of this site? There’s a film clip from BRINCANDO EL CHARCO which is precisely a coming out scene. The father is terribly angry and outraged, the mother attempts to protect her daughter. The brother wants to intervene in his sister’s behalf but he backs off. He’s afraid of their father. But the father himself seems to suffer deeply. It’s hard for everyone to come to terms with the fact that a son or a daughter or a brother or a sister is gay–I guess. I have a cousin who is gay and nobody ever really says anything about it. He doesn’t really hide the fact that he is gay but he doesn’t really flaunt it. And no one in our family ever says anything about it. Amazing. I even have another cousing who died of AIDS and to this day my other aunt doesn’t talk about him or what he died of or that he is dead! I just learned of his death accidentally. Amazing but true.
RE: RE: What about gay marriage and equal rights for gays?
Wow! You really forwarded the discussion with this comment.
RE: RE: A PR QUEER
Ever heard of silence=death? It’s a sort of rally cry for the AIDS movement. Perhaps it can be used to describe the life and experiences of a gay in a Puerto Rican (or any Latin family).
The silence: The acknowledgement that someone in the family is gay, but there is no outright discussion about the fact. Out of sight/discussion….out of mind.
Death: The gay family member and the family itself suffers, almost dies, from the silence. Imagine not being able to talk about something that troubles you or makes you happy. Not to be able to share your thoughts. That’s death.
In every Puerto Rican family, there is that one relative that is gay but considered respectable because he or she doesn’t “flaunt” his or her gayness. That’s retarded! So, if my brother is straight, and the biggest womanizer on this side of the Earth, than that’s acceptable????
It’s this type of backwards thinking that’ll keep gays and lesbians in the proverbial closest.
RE: RE: RE: A PR QUEER
I might even suggest, regarding the “death” part of the equation, that the silence of the PR family leads to not just spiritual but physical death because of lack of information — about prevention, about services, about medical treatment possibilities.
In my earlier comment, I described the alienation that follows coming out. More specifically for me, that means going to family events alone (now I just don’t go–especially weddings–if I am not welcome to bring someone), and not being able to talk about a lot of things. Conversation is limited to the weather, work, and other non-controversial topics.
RE: RE: RE: A PR QUEER
There is a play entitled “Between Blessings” in an anthology entitled “Action: Plays from the Nuyorican Poets Cafe” that might be of interest`because it deals precisely with issues of homophobia and acceptance of machismo/womanizing in the Puerto Rican culture. I agree that this is an extremely important area that we as a people need to work on.
RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
Yes, thank you also for touching upon this most interesting phenomenom that I have often thought about but can’t seem to figure out. I would love to read more reactions to this subject…anybody?
RE: RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
Why don’t you tell us some of your opinions or observations.
RE: RE: RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
Well, as I said before, I don’t know much about this subject so i could be totally off however in my assessment machismo is so embedded in the psyche of our culture that lesbians have never reached the heights of mockery or rejection of gay men because to mock or reject them would be to acknowledge or validate them… In summary I would venture to guess, and conclude, that the phobia is so much greater that the lifestyle needs to by denied/ignored altogether?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
Yes, I would agree in part that in any phallocentric culture–which includes most of the world–homosexual women are basically ignored. That is, they don’t rate so that only the male homosexual is seen as threatening. He can rape another man–to state it in extreme terms–and has all the rights and privileges that patriarchy arrogates for the male. This is really worth exploring more but it’s so new to me that this is at least my first cut or stab at trying to address this subject.
RE: RE: RE: RE: A PR QUEER
I don’t know your name but sometime family just do not except us wether we are skinny tall or just plain ugly so just go with the friends real friends you have> Family means alot but sometimes they just let us down
RE: RE: RE: What about gay marriage and equal rights for gays?
Thanks.
Unfortunately, there seems to be (?) a hesitancy on the part of those in the forum to really engage/deal with this topic. Hmmm; I wonder why? After all, same-sex unions is a topic that has been in the media for at least a few months now. Do PRs have NO opinion on the matter? Is this (sadly) latent Catholicism? Are people really convinced that (a) god exists and (b) it is a sin to be gay/lesbian? I hope we’ve gotten away from that superstition.
RE: RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
Gracias por su respuesta. Estoy muy de acuerdo con el hecho que PRs no leen o estudian, no solo la historia/cultura puertoriquena, pero tampoco la historia/cultura de otras naciones de lengua espanol. Una tragedia–es tiempo de dedicar parte de nuestro tiempo libre hacia este trabajo, pues aprender es trabajo. Me parece que muchos de nuestra generacion (y los que vienen detras)saben casi nada de la historia Latinoamericana, ni conocen quien fue (por ejemplo) Simon Bolivar. O La Malinche.
El pueblo que no sabe ni su historia o la de sus vecinos, es un pueblo que sera exploitada y que permanecera en estado de ignorancia.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
I’ve gotta say, it’s been a disappointing response to what seems a somewhat important issue in Latino communities–both the disgusting sexism as well as near hatred of those who aren’t “real” men or women–homosexuals/lesbians. Guess I won’t bring up my question on how much harm both Catholicism and Protestanism (as well as Santeria and other religious mythology) have done to the PR community. THAT topic might be controversial! 🙂
off limits
This seems to be the off-limits area of the Forum. I wonder why? Perhaps we don’t know what these attitudes are or perhaps we just don’t like discussing the subject. Why?
RE: off limits
Scary, isn’t it? Wonder what we’ll tell our children?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
I certainly beleive that gays and lesbians in PR as well as in many other nations have been marginalized and oppressed. I also beleive that homophobia and heterosexism are part of a continuum or systematic oppression that sometimes drive people to struggle with their identities. In relation to what you were discussing previously, I do beleive that the “construction of masculinities in PR” leave not space for gay men, only as a “subordinate one” (however you do not have to agree). I going to suggest some books about gay and lesbian issues that might be helpful (probably you all know about them) Dime Capitán, written by Rafael Ramírez, is an analysis of Puerto Rican’s masculinity from an anthropolical perspective. In relation to religion and homosexuality there are several nice books, but not from the island: Same sex unions in premodern Europe and Christianity Social Tolerance and Hosexuality both by John Boswell,(perdonen el atrevimiento!).
By the way, I think that gays and lesbians have been marginalized also because they represent a threat to “traditional” family structure which serves as a tool for control and regulation of people’s live. Please let me know your opinions. Good luck to all of you!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
Have you ever read any of the volumes of Michel Foucault’s “History of Sexuality”? He suggests that the way we think about sexuality has changed radically in the past centuries. For example, sex is seen is in terms of discipline now, whereas it wasn’t before. (That is really oversimplified, though.) I think that has a lot to do with Protestantism and Catholicism.
Also, it is important to look at how the island was “doled out” in sections to certain churches after transfer to US control. The Catholic Church also changed the nature of their mission, by replacing Hispanic priests and bishops with Anglo personel. (I’ve read this all somewhere, but don’t ask me to give you the references, I can’t remember!)
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
The Boswell books ARE an excellent set of resources–I’ve always wondered what Christians would do if it ever came out that Jesus Or “St.” Paul were gay?
As to your remark on threatening the “traditional” family, it’s a point well taken.
No hay que perdonar el atrevimiento–estas contribuyendo al topico. No se preocupe.
RE: Gays & Lesbians
On the same line of Matthew and Victor, I was also thinking on the power of religious figures in Puerto Rico (as in many other places). For instance, I think that still for the Catholic Community in PR the Pope represents higher authority. The Pope always remarks that homosexuality is a sin, and is always putting down, gay people. In addition other Protestant Figures are also criminalizing and pathologizing gay and lesbian communities, because they are consider a crime against family values. That could be one of the reasons for the negative view of gays and lesbians.
On the other hand, I was also reflecting about where are gays and lesbians issues located in PRican structure, and for me is not that gays and lesbians remain invisible. Certainly, as a society we render them visible, but only to put them down and ridiculize (make fun) them. We acknowledge gay issues, e.g in the media, but just by portraying “el estilista loca”, “la loca de clóset en los programas radiales” o las “mujeres de sexualidad indefinida”. In that sense we are saying we know that you are here and need something, but we do not care about you. This dynamic is also reflected on the social services, the only agency that I know deals with gay issues is related to AIDS, and defenitely they are contributing the well-being of people. Nonetheless, it, reproduces the association gay= to IHV/AIDS, too.
RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
I will respond to some of the issues you raised later on, but its a wee bit late right about now. I’ll for now just state that this is a wonderful post, especially your last part about media portrayals–a whole BUNCH of questions could be spun off that point and made into forum questions. Later till then.
RE: Feminizing.
I think an interesting point about homosexuality is the stereotype of the feminine homosexual. That seems to matter because of the fact that feminine is seen as weak. I think sports are a good example of this- isn’t the whole point of sports to feminize the opponent by defeating him? Often we look at marganalized, oppressed groups as being feminine.
Now, getting back to your point about the media. Maybe it would be positive to see a “masculine” homosexual role. There have been so many throughout history, such as Alexander the Great and Mao Tse-Tung (not good guys, but certainly tough).
What does everyone think of Sunshine’s character Vitin? Although all of Sunshine’s characters are ridiculous misinterpritations, Vitin still falls into the categorie of “la loca”. Do you think that is irresponsible?
RE: RE: Feminizing.
Who is Sunshine and who is Vitin? I want to check this out. Thanks!
“Agitando”
Sunshine is an absolutely hillarious comedian. And he’s an Independentista! Vitin is one of his stock characters, a “loca”. Vitin also happens to be a verde. Other characters are (forgive the spelling if its wrong) Don Eleusterio, a rabid estadista, Eulpidio, his adult son who is still in eight grade, and Chemba, a dirty old lady, who is the Muñocista of the bunch. It comes on at 5 PM weekdays (at least it did while I was living on the island several months ago), and if the connection is not clogged up you can catch it at http://www.salsoul.com on Real Audio. It might take a while to get into the flow of things, but the guy is crazy!
RE: “Agitando”
Thanks!
White Ribbons
In one of the pictures from Vieques I noticed an elderly woman standing next to a fence covered in white ribbons. In an
article elsewhere I read the ribbons stood for Peace.
In honor of this woman and Vieques, I have placed a white ribbon on the attenae of my car. In addition, I have copied
the Marina Fuera Sign and placed it in my car window.
I encourage all Vieques supporters to do the same.
Everyone, Place a White Ribbon on your car, trees, picket signs, etc to symbolize the fight for Naval freedom in
Vieques.
In the 90’s I was a yellow ribbon supporter of the Troops in Gulf War. I had many college friend and school teachers
called to the war.
While the ribbons themselves did not bring them home, The display of the yellow ribbons everywhere supported our
friends and loved ones as called by the military.
I knew people of all ages, all walks of life and all races supporting and knowing what these ribbons were for.
It is a similiar story with the pink ribbons for breast cancer awareness and other ribbons for causes.
When people do not know what the ribbons mean, they ask questions and we can share the information to spread
awareness of the plight of Vieques.
Please everyone, Find a White Ribbon somewhere and Show the fight for Vieques is not ending with a few
demonstrations here and there.
The large battle is at hand. We must spread the word of Vieques and get more people involved.
I am so happy to see that there are so many cities having demonstatrations, but there should be more.
We need to write letters, send emails, and encourage our representatives to have a bill passed to cease Naval activites
in Vieques.
The time is now. Voting seasons will be coming soon, and we need all the votes and supporters we can muster.
The pictures have helped, but Everyone needs to know.
GODPEACE
Vieques SI
Marina NO
PEACE TO VIEQUES No More BOMBS (concrete or Live!)
RE: RE: RE: RE: A PR QUEER
But what would you expect them to talk about besides the weather or work–these are things most people have in common and that is why they are the leading subjects in light conversations which are the kind that people engage in when they are at social gatherings. I’m not defending anyone. Just suggesting that one might be a little too self-conscious to simply be present and engage in light conversation. If you feel that you want to broach the subject of being gay, why don’t you? I know it’s heavy but–you never know what might come about!
Re: Gay Discussion!!!
Hi people,
what is going on that no one is posting any more comments on gays and lesbian issues in PR? I think that is really important to tackle the issue, because it can provide space for other people to express themselves. Go, Go, Go!
I know that there is “mucha tela de donde cortar”.
RE: Re: Gay Discussion!!!
Well then let’s have a discussion rather than discussing discussing the subject. I agree with you completely. We don’t talk about it because I guess we don’t really have much to say about the subject or don’t know how to say it. Does the violence we hear about in the United States also occur in Puerto Rico or in the Puerto Rican/Latino communities stateside?
In my childhood I saw men tease homosexual men. Homosexual women were another story. I think we were all sort of puzzled by them. Most of them looked or tried to look like men and this always grossed people out. But it wasn’t really threatening. There was less taunting directed towards them. The homosexual men always got the brunt of the jokes and violence. I might be wrong. This is more impression. I guess homosexual women might have been raped. But this would be done privately unlike the public violence directed towards homosexual men.
better question
the better question would be what keeps puerto rican fear about homosexuality in place?
RE: better question
I don’t understand what you mean by this? Could you be more specific.
Hola a todos. I fully came out when I was 16 I am now 51. To make it short, my family accepts me, but that is how they make it seem to me. I feel that its OK for me to be gay but don’t talk about it. When I bring up a conversation about me dating a guy or anything that has to do with my life surrounding my sexuality the conversation is cut short by my family member or family members, especially when there are children around. My mother is now 90, Puerto Rican old school, so I don’t try to change her or bring up my life as a conversation with her, again its cut short. I know that she loves me and I worship the ground she walks on. I hope that before she dies and if there are mothers and fathers out there that has a gay son or daughter and that aren’t happy that they have a gay son or daughter, that before she dies she will tell me that she accepts me and loves me and that she feels that she didn’t give birth to an abomination.
Gays & Lesbians
Unfortunmately, though there is much improvement, ther’s still the notion that these folks are not real men or women. Part of it derives from the unfortunate Catholic/Protestant heritage left from the Spanish, and its historical insistence that homosexuality is a “sin.” That’s what happens when you wed any outlook to a religious viewpoint that has no validity, but that’s another topic. (Here’s a great forum question: why are there very few Latino atheists or agnostics, anyway?)
RE: Gays & Lesbians
Sorry–must’ve hit the wrong button and posted before I was finished. As I was writing, I remember during the 1980s when the AIDS epidemic began its course, how many PRs in their 20s and 30s died of “pneumonia”–it was a loss of face for families to have homosexuals. If truth be told, who knows what portion of PRs are gay? Is homophobia still extensive in PR families? Are there differences between attitudes of Boricuas on the mainland vs. the island? Age /cultural differences? Do we PR men still have this machismo nonsense that sees homosexuals as a threat to our “manhood”?
Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
It doesn’t seem like this is a particularly popular topic. I wonder why. And I wonder if a distinction can be drawn between the threat to masculinity that male homosexuality poses and the threat, if any, that female homosexuality poses? It seems that when people talk about gays they are imagining homosexual men and never women. Are Puerto Rican lesbians a threat to Puerto Rican masculinity?
RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
If you think this is unpopular, wait till the antiChristian post. 🙂
I hope you’re not right about this being an unpopular post. Let’s hope it’s just that people are busy.
BTW, my post includes men and women. However, I have no problem with considering the questions separately.
RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
Clara,
You’ve made a keen observation about the lack of interest in this topic. One can deduce from this silence that we Puerto Ricans are very uncomfortable with such a discussion.
Why? What are we afraid of? We show great courage fighting the colonialism of the U.S. Yet, we can’t admit to ourselves that there are many gay and lesbian Puerto Ricans. What’s the source of this shame?
RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
Amigos: No creo que el hombre puertorriqueño heterosexual se sienta amenazado por la homosexualidad de otro.
Creo, como Víctor, que parte de la homofobia boricua se debe a la insistencia (tanto católica como protestante) de que el homosexualismo es un pecado. Esto a calado muy hondo en la conciencia colectiva del pueblo puertorriqueño y una forma de atacar al homosexual y a la lesbiana es, por ejemplo, con la burla. ¿Se han fijado que muchos chistes de homosexuales hay en Puerto Rico? He notado que entre los puertorriqueños que viven o se han criado en los EE.UU. esto es practicamente inexistente. En cuanto a la pregunta de Víctor sobre el agnostisismo y ateísmo, me parece que, en parte, la respuesta es la misma; el fuerte arraigo que ha tenido en Puerto Rico la iglesia, particularmente la católica, la cual ha sido parte inseparable en la formación de la idiosincracia y visón de mundo del puertorriqueño. A esto yo añadiría que en nuestro querido Puerto Rico, la gente en general, el pueblo, no ha desarrollado, por las razones que sean, una cultura de la lectura. (por ejemplo los gringos leen mas que nosotros. Aunque sean los muñequitos de las tirillas cómicas) De estudiar y superarse intelectualmente. Esto de nuevo,de manera GENERAL, es referente al público boricua que vive y se ha criado en P.R. Por el contrario, los que estan en los EE.UU. tal vez aunque no lean, al menos tienen contacto con otras culturas y otras mentalidades mas tolerantes en ambos respectos, dándole asi al boricua en los EE.UU. una visión diferente que humaniza a los homosexuales (y tambien a los ateos y agnosticos) a la cual no tendrían exposición en el mismo P.R. o al menos no de la misma manera o de una forma mas amplia.
RE: RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
I think both you and Ivan have made excellent, excellent points. Thank you both!
What about gay marriage and equal rights for gays?
It seems to me that discussing homosexuality in the abstract is not really constructive or useful at all. To really weigh in for or against homosexual practices one really must consider the activities of these men and women in real terms. One of which is this whole marriage issue that has been in American media a great deal. Do people think there will be homosexual marriages in Puerto Rico? What happens to gays now in Puerto Rico? How are they treated by their families and the communities down there? How are they treated by the police? Are there laws now that protect their rights? These are the questions that we should be discussing–not attitudes. Attitudes are too elusive or really abstract. Give me the blood and guts of what we’re talking about.
RE: What about gay marriage and equal rights for gays?
Except that the “attitudes” you wish to minimize are manifested in behavior. Thus, clarifying the attitudes goes a long way towards clarifying the behavior/laws that spring from said attitudes. However, I do agree that your questions are more “concrete,” whatever that might mean.
A PR QUEER
Being Puerto Rican and gay and born in the US (Massachusetts), I find myself pressured to “choose sides” –either my “lifestyle” or my “family”. What this means is that I am challenged to be either PR or gay. The only way I can see myself fitting into both is to adopt some sort of “feminized” social posture: as entertainment for straight people (una loca), or more practically(!) as a hairdresser or caregiver. Because I came out, did not apologize, and basically did what I wanted, I have been forced out (gently, indirectly) as a full-fledged family member. It does not help that I am also an agnostic/atheist anticlerical type — and this from someone with Catholic education from Grade 1 – high school seminary! That’s it for now…
RE: A PR QUEER
At the risk of sound platitudinous, thanks for sharing. It must really be painful to feel your family withdraw their affection simply because you come out. What real difference does it make when you are out? Could you be a little more specific about, let’s say, your father’s reaction or your mother’s? Have you seen the NUYORICAN CINEMA section of this site? There’s a film clip from BRINCANDO EL CHARCO which is precisely a coming out scene. The father is terribly angry and outraged, the mother attempts to protect her daughter. The brother wants to intervene in his sister’s behalf but he backs off. He’s afraid of their father. But the father himself seems to suffer deeply. It’s hard for everyone to come to terms with the fact that a son or a daughter or a brother or a sister is gay–I guess. I have a cousin who is gay and nobody ever really says anything about it. He doesn’t really hide the fact that he is gay but he doesn’t really flaunt it. And no one in our family ever says anything about it. Amazing. I even have another cousing who died of AIDS and to this day my other aunt doesn’t talk about him or what he died of or that he is dead! I just learned of his death accidentally. Amazing but true.
RE: RE: What about gay marriage and equal rights for gays?
Wow! You really forwarded the discussion with this comment.
RE: RE: A PR QUEER
Ever heard of silence=death? It’s a sort of rally cry for the AIDS movement. Perhaps it can be used to describe the life and experiences of a gay in a Puerto Rican (or any Latin family).
The silence: The acknowledgement that someone in the family is gay, but there is no outright discussion about the fact. Out of sight/discussion….out of mind.
Death: The gay family member and the family itself suffers, almost dies, from the silence. Imagine not being able to talk about something that troubles you or makes you happy. Not to be able to share your thoughts. That’s death.
In every Puerto Rican family, there is that one relative that is gay but considered respectable because he or she doesn’t “flaunt” his or her gayness. That’s retarded! So, if my brother is straight, and the biggest womanizer on this side of the Earth, than that’s acceptable????
It’s this type of backwards thinking that’ll keep gays and lesbians in the proverbial closest.
RE: RE: RE: A PR QUEER
I might even suggest, regarding the “death” part of the equation, that the silence of the PR family leads to not just spiritual but physical death because of lack of information — about prevention, about services, about medical treatment possibilities.
In my earlier comment, I described the alienation that follows coming out. More specifically for me, that means going to family events alone (now I just don’t go–especially weddings–if I am not welcome to bring someone), and not being able to talk about a lot of things. Conversation is limited to the weather, work, and other non-controversial topics.
RE: RE: RE: A PR QUEER
There is a play entitled “Between Blessings” in an anthology entitled “Action: Plays from the Nuyorican Poets Cafe” that might be of interest`because it deals precisely with issues of homophobia and acceptance of machismo/womanizing in the Puerto Rican culture. I agree that this is an extremely important area that we as a people need to work on.
RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
Yes, thank you also for touching upon this most interesting phenomenom that I have often thought about but can’t seem to figure out. I would love to read more reactions to this subject…anybody?
RE: RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
Why don’t you tell us some of your opinions or observations.
RE: RE: RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
Well, as I said before, I don’t know much about this subject so i could be totally off however in my assessment machismo is so embedded in the psyche of our culture that lesbians have never reached the heights of mockery or rejection of gay men because to mock or reject them would be to acknowledge or validate them… In summary I would venture to guess, and conclude, that the phobia is so much greater that the lifestyle needs to by denied/ignored altogether?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Are PR lesbians a threat to PR masculinity
Yes, I would agree in part that in any phallocentric culture–which includes most of the world–homosexual women are basically ignored. That is, they don’t rate so that only the male homosexual is seen as threatening. He can rape another man–to state it in extreme terms–and has all the rights and privileges that patriarchy arrogates for the male. This is really worth exploring more but it’s so new to me that this is at least my first cut or stab at trying to address this subject.
RE: RE: RE: RE: A PR QUEER
I don’t know your name but sometime family just do not except us wether we are skinny tall or just plain ugly so just go with the friends real friends you have> Family means alot but sometimes they just let us down
RE: RE: RE: What about gay marriage and equal rights for gays?
Thanks.
Unfortunately, there seems to be (?) a hesitancy on the part of those in the forum to really engage/deal with this topic. Hmmm; I wonder why? After all, same-sex unions is a topic that has been in the media for at least a few months now. Do PRs have NO opinion on the matter? Is this (sadly) latent Catholicism? Are people really convinced that (a) god exists and (b) it is a sin to be gay/lesbian? I hope we’ve gotten away from that superstition.
RE: RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
Gracias por su respuesta. Estoy muy de acuerdo con el hecho que PRs no leen o estudian, no solo la historia/cultura puertoriquena, pero tampoco la historia/cultura de otras naciones de lengua espanol. Una tragedia–es tiempo de dedicar parte de nuestro tiempo libre hacia este trabajo, pues aprender es trabajo. Me parece que muchos de nuestra generacion (y los que vienen detras)saben casi nada de la historia Latinoamericana, ni conocen quien fue (por ejemplo) Simon Bolivar. O La Malinche.
El pueblo que no sabe ni su historia o la de sus vecinos, es un pueblo que sera exploitada y que permanecera en estado de ignorancia.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
I’ve gotta say, it’s been a disappointing response to what seems a somewhat important issue in Latino communities–both the disgusting sexism as well as near hatred of those who aren’t “real” men or women–homosexuals/lesbians. Guess I won’t bring up my question on how much harm both Catholicism and Protestanism (as well as Santeria and other religious mythology) have done to the PR community. THAT topic might be controversial! 🙂
off limits
This seems to be the off-limits area of the Forum. I wonder why? Perhaps we don’t know what these attitudes are or perhaps we just don’t like discussing the subject. Why?
RE: off limits
Scary, isn’t it? Wonder what we’ll tell our children?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
I certainly beleive that gays and lesbians in PR as well as in many other nations have been marginalized and oppressed. I also beleive that homophobia and heterosexism are part of a continuum or systematic oppression that sometimes drive people to struggle with their identities. In relation to what you were discussing previously, I do beleive that the “construction of masculinities in PR” leave not space for gay men, only as a “subordinate one” (however you do not have to agree). I going to suggest some books about gay and lesbian issues that might be helpful (probably you all know about them) Dime Capitán, written by Rafael Ramírez, is an analysis of Puerto Rican’s masculinity from an anthropolical perspective. In relation to religion and homosexuality there are several nice books, but not from the island: Same sex unions in premodern Europe and Christianity Social Tolerance and Hosexuality both by John Boswell,(perdonen el atrevimiento!).
By the way, I think that gays and lesbians have been marginalized also because they represent a threat to “traditional” family structure which serves as a tool for control and regulation of people’s live. Please let me know your opinions. Good luck to all of you!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
Have you ever read any of the volumes of Michel Foucault’s “History of Sexuality”? He suggests that the way we think about sexuality has changed radically in the past centuries. For example, sex is seen is in terms of discipline now, whereas it wasn’t before. (That is really oversimplified, though.) I think that has a lot to do with Protestantism and Catholicism.
Also, it is important to look at how the island was “doled out” in sections to certain churches after transfer to US control. The Catholic Church also changed the nature of their mission, by replacing Hispanic priests and bishops with Anglo personel. (I’ve read this all somewhere, but don’t ask me to give you the references, I can’t remember!)
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
The Boswell books ARE an excellent set of resources–I’ve always wondered what Christians would do if it ever came out that Jesus Or “St.” Paul were gay?
As to your remark on threatening the “traditional” family, it’s a point well taken.
No hay que perdonar el atrevimiento–estas contribuyendo al topico. No se preocupe.
RE: Gays & Lesbians
On the same line of Matthew and Victor, I was also thinking on the power of religious figures in Puerto Rico (as in many other places). For instance, I think that still for the Catholic Community in PR the Pope represents higher authority. The Pope always remarks that homosexuality is a sin, and is always putting down, gay people. In addition other Protestant Figures are also criminalizing and pathologizing gay and lesbian communities, because they are consider a crime against family values. That could be one of the reasons for the negative view of gays and lesbians.
On the other hand, I was also reflecting about where are gays and lesbians issues located in PRican structure, and for me is not that gays and lesbians remain invisible. Certainly, as a society we render them visible, but only to put them down and ridiculize (make fun) them. We acknowledge gay issues, e.g in the media, but just by portraying “el estilista loca”, “la loca de clóset en los programas radiales” o las “mujeres de sexualidad indefinida”. In that sense we are saying we know that you are here and need something, but we do not care about you. This dynamic is also reflected on the social services, the only agency that I know deals with gay issues is related to AIDS, and defenitely they are contributing the well-being of people. Nonetheless, it, reproduces the association gay= to IHV/AIDS, too.
RE: RE: Gays & Lesbians
I will respond to some of the issues you raised later on, but its a wee bit late right about now. I’ll for now just state that this is a wonderful post, especially your last part about media portrayals–a whole BUNCH of questions could be spun off that point and made into forum questions. Later till then.
RE: Feminizing.
I think an interesting point about homosexuality is the stereotype of the feminine homosexual. That seems to matter because of the fact that feminine is seen as weak. I think sports are a good example of this- isn’t the whole point of sports to feminize the opponent by defeating him? Often we look at marganalized, oppressed groups as being feminine.
Now, getting back to your point about the media. Maybe it would be positive to see a “masculine” homosexual role. There have been so many throughout history, such as Alexander the Great and Mao Tse-Tung (not good guys, but certainly tough).
What does everyone think of Sunshine’s character Vitin? Although all of Sunshine’s characters are ridiculous misinterpritations, Vitin still falls into the categorie of “la loca”. Do you think that is irresponsible?
RE: RE: Feminizing.
Who is Sunshine and who is Vitin? I want to check this out. Thanks!
“Agitando”
Sunshine is an absolutely hillarious comedian. And he’s an Independentista! Vitin is one of his stock characters, a “loca”. Vitin also happens to be a verde. Other characters are (forgive the spelling if its wrong) Don Eleusterio, a rabid estadista, Eulpidio, his adult son who is still in eight grade, and Chemba, a dirty old lady, who is the Muñocista of the bunch. It comes on at 5 PM weekdays (at least it did while I was living on the island several months ago), and if the connection is not clogged up you can catch it at http://www.salsoul.com on Real Audio. It might take a while to get into the flow of things, but the guy is crazy!
RE: “Agitando”
Thanks!
White Ribbons
In one of the pictures from Vieques I noticed an elderly woman standing next to a fence covered in white ribbons. In an
article elsewhere I read the ribbons stood for Peace.
In honor of this woman and Vieques, I have placed a white ribbon on the attenae of my car. In addition, I have copied
the Marina Fuera Sign and placed it in my car window.
I encourage all Vieques supporters to do the same.
Everyone, Place a White Ribbon on your car, trees, picket signs, etc to symbolize the fight for Naval freedom in
Vieques.
In the 90’s I was a yellow ribbon supporter of the Troops in Gulf War. I had many college friend and school teachers
called to the war.
While the ribbons themselves did not bring them home, The display of the yellow ribbons everywhere supported our
friends and loved ones as called by the military.
I knew people of all ages, all walks of life and all races supporting and knowing what these ribbons were for.
It is a similiar story with the pink ribbons for breast cancer awareness and other ribbons for causes.
When people do not know what the ribbons mean, they ask questions and we can share the information to spread
awareness of the plight of Vieques.
Please everyone, Find a White Ribbon somewhere and Show the fight for Vieques is not ending with a few
demonstrations here and there.
The large battle is at hand. We must spread the word of Vieques and get more people involved.
I am so happy to see that there are so many cities having demonstatrations, but there should be more.
We need to write letters, send emails, and encourage our representatives to have a bill passed to cease Naval activites
in Vieques.
The time is now. Voting seasons will be coming soon, and we need all the votes and supporters we can muster.
The pictures have helped, but Everyone needs to know.
GODPEACE
Vieques SI
Marina NO
PEACE TO VIEQUES No More BOMBS (concrete or Live!)
RE: RE: RE: RE: A PR QUEER
But what would you expect them to talk about besides the weather or work–these are things most people have in common and that is why they are the leading subjects in light conversations which are the kind that people engage in when they are at social gatherings. I’m not defending anyone. Just suggesting that one might be a little too self-conscious to simply be present and engage in light conversation. If you feel that you want to broach the subject of being gay, why don’t you? I know it’s heavy but–you never know what might come about!
Re: Gay Discussion!!!
Hi people,
what is going on that no one is posting any more comments on gays and lesbian issues in PR? I think that is really important to tackle the issue, because it can provide space for other people to express themselves. Go, Go, Go!
I know that there is “mucha tela de donde cortar”.
RE: Re: Gay Discussion!!!
Well then let’s have a discussion rather than discussing discussing the subject. I agree with you completely. We don’t talk about it because I guess we don’t really have much to say about the subject or don’t know how to say it. Does the violence we hear about in the United States also occur in Puerto Rico or in the Puerto Rican/Latino communities stateside?
In my childhood I saw men tease homosexual men. Homosexual women were another story. I think we were all sort of puzzled by them. Most of them looked or tried to look like men and this always grossed people out. But it wasn’t really threatening. There was less taunting directed towards them. The homosexual men always got the brunt of the jokes and violence. I might be wrong. This is more impression. I guess homosexual women might have been raped. But this would be done privately unlike the public violence directed towards homosexual men.
better question
the better question would be what keeps puerto rican fear about homosexuality in place?
RE: better question
I don’t understand what you mean by this? Could you be more specific.
Hola a todos. I fully came out when I was 16 I am now 51. To make it short, my family accepts me, but that is how they make it seem to me. I feel that its OK for me to be gay but don’t talk about it. When I bring up a conversation about me dating a guy or anything that has to do with my life surrounding my sexuality the conversation is cut short by my family member or family members, especially when there are children around. My mother is now 90, Puerto Rican old school, so I don’t try to change her or bring up my life as a conversation with her, again its cut short. I know that she loves me and I worship the ground she walks on. I hope that before she dies and if there are mothers and fathers out there that has a gay son or daughter and that aren’t happy that they have a gay son or daughter, that before she dies she will tell me that she accepts me and loves me and that she feels that she didn’t give birth to an abomination.