173 thoughts on “What are race relations like among Puerto Ricans on the island and in the U.S.?”
RE: Reply
There’s a group of post Modernist Marxist-Leninist who are pro-statehood and believe that Puerto Rico is not a country and could never be a nation in the classic sense of nation. Meaning, I presume, England, France, Germany, the U.S. In fact, they believe many nations that were former colonies and that remain locked in a neocolonial condition are really pseudo nations. I believe they call themselve Radical Statehooders–something of this sort.
RE: RE: Racist policy against Puerto Rico
On whose terms should they want it? Yours, Joe Shmo, the U.S. government? Get real.
Boricuas and Race and Jose Luis Gonzalez
I agree with you. It is a mistake to elevate the african over and above the Taino and Spanish influence, as Gonzalez does. And it clearly points to his bias and, I believe, americanization. To wit, in his discussion of Jose Campeche, the Puerto Rican painter who was much more sophisticated than any of his North American contemporaries, Gonzalez assumes that because Campeche was of mixed descent, he is to be considered black or of African descent whereas he clearly states that he was mulatto. Further, it seems strange for him to claim Jose Campeche as an example of the African influence on Puerto Rican culture since Campeche was of mixed descent and was completely involved in a European activity of painting in a totally Spanish/European style–stockings and all. I never understood why he just glosses over these facts.
RE: RE: RE: Boricuas and Race
Hey, did you ever get back to us?
RE: For Americans we are basically black
In America, if you have one drop of black blood, then you are considered black. that has been true since slavery, whereas, in other parts of the Americas, if you have “only” one drop of black blood, then you are not considered black. so what’s the difference between a light-skinned African-American and a same-complected Puerto Rican, genetically speaking? most likely, not much.
as far as how history is taught in schools, i totally disagree. if you are speaking of American history, be aware that, for most of America’s history, it has been black and white. African-Americans have been in this country before it was a country and before most all other Americans. so, how can you compare centuries of American history between blacks and whites going years back, with multiculturalism, which only begins to occur within the last century?
so, if 2nd and 3rd generation Puerto Rican kids in New York grow up breakdancing and rapping, and dressing and talking like African-American youth, maybe it’s because they can relate to the rhythm and the frustration as any other African-American kid.
RE: RE: For Americans we are basically black
I agree with you on racial nomenclature and in fact would go further to state that this clearly establishes racial categories as being subjective and cultural bound.
American history or the writing and teaching of it has been and is a black and white thing. Multiculturalism as a discipline is new but the reality is that this country has been populated by many different people who had a profound effect on the development of the U.S. The indigenous population for one, the Latino population for another, have been dealing with the Anglo presence since the first landing at Roanoke. So that the ACTUAL history of the U.S., as with other nations in the Americas, has always involved other groups, outside of the dominant one. The WRITING and TEACHING of U.S. American history has and continues to be represented as a black and white thing. The fact that you think multiculturalism is new is very clearly an indication of this. To further disabuse you of the notion that multiculturalism even exists beyond the show of words, I submit to you that the word multiculturalism is basically 90’s word and now the new millenium’s word for minority. Occasionally that retrogressive word makes its appearance to shock and offend.
Yes, I also agree with your latter point that there are issues of class as well as race that come into play in discussing intergroup relations. I would also like to submit that Puerto Ricans as some African American rappers have stated were directly involved in the development of rap and what has lately come to be known as urban culture. The point I was actually trying to make was that very specific government policies aided and abetted the marginalization of Puerto Ricans, to the point of annihilating their culture and identity, and that this was connected with Puerto Ricans being perceived as black.
RE: RE: For Americans we are basically black
I’m getting pretty tired of people behaving as though White Puerto Ricans don’t exist. I also get annoyed when some people say that there are NO pure (for lack of a better word) races among the Puerto Ricans. Pure races being Africans, Spanish or the true Puerto Ricans, the Tainos Indians — as well as people of mixed race!
Also, the first people of the United States were Native American Indians, not Africans.
RE: RE: RE: For Americans we are basically black
Yes, I agree that it is very frustrating to be ignored, misperceived, misunderstood and abused. I have seen white Puerto Rican children singled out for abuse either verbal or physical in public school. And I further believe that there are a lot of historical distortions that basically serve a political agenda here in the States.
RE: RE: RE: Boricuas and Race
Aparentemente, no se entiende el ser sarcastico!
race and puerto ricans
i find this topic both compelling and frustrating. my experience as a fair skinned puerto rican has been different from dark skinned puerto ricans, even in my own family. we as a people,and everyone for that matter needs to stop their favoritism for what is perceived as white latino or black latino features, traits, etc. i understand that latinos are not a race but it seems that latinos in general have their own racial prejudices within their own group. i really think that is something we have to examine.
i was also told once that racial discrimination does not exist in latin america as in america. however, from my experience in new york, i haven’t met any latinos who do not discriminate based on race, or skin color, regardless if the person is latino. is this true for the island as well?
i really would appreciate any feedback. thanks
RE: RE: RE: For Americans we are basically black
It amazes me that we insist on talking about “racial” this or “racial” that, when in fact there is no such thing. It’s like the amusing (yet sad) “arguments” between a Christian and a Muslim, each insisting that the phantom known as god they both preach is the right one–a simple answer, is that there is no such thing; god is a myth. So is “race” We do not talk about the “race” of roses being better than the “race” of lilies, so why do we allow ourselves to fall in to the imposed trap and do this with humans? When the “little green men” from Mars are discovered, then one can talk about the races. All one can talk about today are (superficial) ethnic differences.
RE: race and puerto ricans
I think there are excellent answers to these questions already posted. Suffice it to say, that (though hopefully improving) we as a group have a long way to go until we cease that nonsense of thinking one is better with lighter skin. Of course, we live in one of the most racist countries both in the present and historically, so progress may be slow. However, the fact that we can discuss this, is a major sign of progress!
Poll
This poll of 600 adults residents of Puerto Rico was conducted by American
Viewpoint, Inc., from June 9-11, 1997, with a margin of error of 4.1%.
QUESTIONS FROM U.S.ENGLISH, INC. PUERTO RICO VOTER SURVEY:
1. Do you consider yourself to be only Puerto Rican, only American or BOTH?
65% Puerto Rican
18% Both
16% American
1% Refused/No answer
2. Can you recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States?
63% No
11% I don’t know what that is
26% Yes
3. Do you know the words of “The Star Spangled Banner”?
66% No
5% I don’t know what that is
28% Yes
1% Refused to answer/no answer
4. In general, do you support Commonwealth, Statehood, or Independence for Puerto Rico?
42% Commonwealth (ELA-Colonial Status)
40% Statehood
7% Independence
8% Unsure
4% Refused/No Answer
5. (Asked of those who responded “Commonwealth” in Question 4.)
Would you support statehood if a new Commonwealth does not guarantee
American citizenship for the children of Puerto Ricans in the future?
43% Yes
40% No
8% Maybe (Answer was volunteered)
7% I don’t Know
3% Refused/No Answer
6. (Asked to only those who responded “Statehood” in Question 4.)
Which one of the following is your principal reason for supporting
statehood?
16% Because we would not lose welfare, food stamps and social benefits from Congress and may receive increased benefits.
23% Because I feel American and the United States is my country.
37% Because of the civil rights we will have as American citizens.
16% Because I do not want Independence.
8% Other/I don’t know
7. (Asked of those who responded “Statehood” in Question 4.)
If adoption of English as the only official language of Puerto Rico was a
requirement to Puerto Rico being granted Statehood, would you still favor
Puerto Rico becoming a state?
77% Yes
16% No
5% I don’t Know
2% Refused/No Answer
8. Do you believe that a super-majority of 75% of the vote, rather than a simple plurality of the vote, should be required for the approval of statehood?
57% Yes
29% No
12% I don’t Know
2% Refused/No Answer
9. Have you ever lived in the mainland United States?
53% Yes
46% No
1% Refused/No Answer
Note: The 1990 U.S. Census found that 98.2% of the Puerto Rican population
over the age of five spoke Spanish. Of those that spoke Spanish, 52.3%
spoke no English, 24.1% spoke English with difficulty, and ONLY 23.6%
spoke English well.
This poll of 600 adults residents of Puerto Rico was conducted by American
Viewpoint, Inc., from June 9-11, 1997, with a margin of error of 4.1%.
Copyright (c) 1997 by U.S.ENGLISH, Inc.
“She’s Puerto Rican?” My Story / Mi Historia
My story -are u ready??? I’ve read this question over & over and need at least 10 pages to type my opinion(s) on this forum subject! (abbreviated summary, if that’s what u care to call it):
Brown skin like milk chocolate,
eyes & cheekbones of Taino,
nose & lips of Yoroba, flat butt & voice of a “gringa” so,they tell me (go ahead, u can laugh) – this “Latina” is busting out! Nuyorican & representin,despite being adopted by a black “West Indian” family in the southern U.S.A! Can u believe that? What does that mean, u say?
“She doesn’t look Puerto Rican?” many say. Jamaican, Dominican, Brazilian, anything but-except for the hair-it’s kinda straight, kinda kinky, people stop & stare! Black girls sometimes ask to buy it (is that a weave?), after they call me “white” & ask, why so I want to associate myself with those “triflin” Puerto Ricans. Spanish here many times ask me why do I want to associate myself with the ns? Whites just stare & wonder. Lighter skin minorities say that I’m so close – “Thank God that you have “good” hair, just marry someone lighter than you”. Many Boricua males here tell me in that nice way, “Tringueno(can’t spell) nice, but too dark to consider for a serious relationship.” Yet, still I rise! I was recently passing through P.R and felt so at home! Was I not there long enough to be called “American” not really part of the “isla del encanto” & that my spanish wasn’t good enough? I don’t know – but seeing so many people like me, made me smile! Made me proud! Okay, so I couldn’t tell who was & who wasn’t an “illegal Dominican” that I hear so many complain about & who was Puerto Rican like me, but I didn’t care! The few that embraced me made me feel warm, like I belonged. Okay, so I lost focus-the question of race relations between us, right? Well, We have a long way to go but it’s better than what Ive experienced with black on black & white on black in the south. We are mixed & proud for the most part & beautiful in every way (not just our beautiful island skintones). Now, If only I could get my boyfriend (who I met on a blind date & happens to be light skinned, Puerto Rican, with straight hair) to help me enlighten our people with our struggles- from vieques (our land) to drug abuse prevention (our bodies) and helping others realize that we need to work together(to save “us”)? I mean,aren’t we all one anyway? Unless you are Castillian, aren’t we all “mixed” spanish, taino, african)to a degree?) My experience has made me strong & proud to be Boricua. But, we have a long way to go still and not enough of us care to fight. Fight externally (against forces agaist us, such as some of the negative U.S. influences)& internally (such as the ignorance our own perpetuate-(“cast” society and my own future mother in law asking “why is she so dark?” when she first saw me – when she herself wears an afro! Light Skinned, hair short & soft, but still an afro! Just enough ammuniton for my adopted mother to say “See. I told you so, they won’t accept you”. Yet still I fight and still I rise. Maybe all Puerto Ricans could start by accepting one another to improve our race relations. That would involve accepting the fact that we do discriminate terribly within our own as well as with others. That sure would help someone like me, who has lived in a different place & who looks not like what so many others would assume & who struggles daily to belong because she never felt that she fully belonged (because some of her own look at her & wish that she was dark & invisible, as not to acknowledge their racially mixed past?)feel more like she was welcomed and belonged.(short, rambling, summary of my many thoughts & experiences). All comments welcome. The End. C.S.S.
¿Acaso no somos todos puertorriqueños?
Creo rídiculo el que la gente diga que por que una persona no nació aquí no sea puertorriqueño. El ser puertorriqueño es un sentmiento, un estado de ánimo… El lugar donde uno nace no necesariamente va a determinar mi nacionalidad. Al que nació en EU pero sus padres le mantuvieron encendida la llama del sentimiento patrio y el amor por esta bendita tierra es tan puertorriqueño como yo que desde que nací no me he separado de mi tierra por más de 2 semanas consecutivas. ¿Por qué dividirnos si todos somos hermanos?
Race Relations Among Us
We generaly take great pride, collectively, of our racial diversity and should be very proud of our general tolerance amongst ourselves as well as for those of other cultures. However, in this general love fest, we historically had and continue to have some degree of racial strife, which we often try to ignore.
I stuggled with this within my own family. It was when I became an adult that I finally came to terms with the racial strife that I grew up with. Growing up in New York, I associated racism primarily as an American cultural issue. American racism was clear, unmistakable, and in your face. I blocked out the Puerto Rican racial strife that occurred even within my own family. Despite the fact that since early childhood I had been told of the racial strife within my own family, it never really registered.
My grandmother had recounted the circumstances of my birth, saying that the white members of my family had objected to my mother marrying my mulatto father. My grandmother was deeply troubled by this, as it was her own children that had voiced these objections.
I remember hearing as a boy my uncle taking great pride in indicating that he and his children could trace their ancestry to pure “white” Spanish blood. My cousins would often remind me of how blond and blue-eyed they were!
So, as an adult it finally dawned on me that some members of my own family were racists. What was interesting was that the issue of race among my white relatives was as divergent as it could possibly be.
From my own personal experience, I have found Puerto Ricans living in New York are more tolerant of racial differences than those in the Island. I believe that this is in part due to the origins of the people that migrated to this area. Most of us came from poor, racially diverse families. The upper class, mostly white, Puerto Ricans have generally stayed home. The economic stratification in Puerto Rico is closely linked along racial lines. This whole story is reversed for our Cuban brothers. Their mostly white upper classes were the ones that migrated to this country.
RE: Race Relations Among Us
Could you people stop? According to Arian nation,kkk and other white supremacist propaganda there is no such thing as a white Puerto Rican. As a matter of fact what Puerto Rican of”African or Spanish” light or dark say that he is a pure hemophiliac breed.
RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
Although I myself am olive-skinned. The reality is that there are white Puerto Ricans–as white as the Irish, Italian and Greek. All of whom have skins of varied tones. But they are indisputably white. And who cares what the ignorant Aryan Nation, KKK, etc. think? I define myself. Why insult whites by referring to them as the hemophiliac breed? This is unnecessary. Attack the white supremacists but not all whites. This is as ridiculous and ignorant as prejudice against us however justified your FEELINGs may seem and be.
Mario: Race Relations Among Us
I thought we were discussing race relations amongst ourselves. You seem to identify yourself according to American racists views on what constitutes “white” versus “non-white”. My discussion is based on our hispanic concept of “white”, which is sometimes at odds with the American concept.
Historically, Americans have held the social concept of “white” (because it is a social concept, not a racial one) to exclude a variety of people. During the 19th century it did not include the Irish (Pat Bucanan, the supreme racist, would not have been looked upon kindly in the Republican Party back then). During the early 20th century it did not include the Jews or the Italians. In fact we inherited the term “Spic” from the Sicilians. During the early 20th century there was a version of the current “Bell Curve” theory of the intellectual inferiority of blacks and hispanics, which slated southern Italians and eastern Europeans as intellectually inferior, with statistical IQ tests to back up the theories.
When I speak of “white” I mean the hispanic version which really means “European”. Europeans, themselves, are of mixed race, especially our decendents from Spain. Europeans are as varied racially as our new-world, and African relatives. Consider nordic blonds, celtic red heads, and Mediterrean brunettes. The Mediterraneans are of particular mixed blood, including Greeks, Phoenicians, Arabs, North Africans, Asians (Asian Minor, including Semites).
The term mulatto, mestizo, and others are of the meticulous Spanish racial classification system, not an American concept. Our European ancestors pursecuted the native american tribes, enslaved blacks, and only until recently did not mix their blood with these groups in great number. Spanish familes would often have their wives moved back to Spain, so their children would not be considered “criollos”.
What we currently consider our “folk” music (Plena y Bomba) was often considered “nigger” music, not to played amongst the cultured white folk.
We have gone a long way from from those bad old days, but there is still some traces of the old Spanish racism among us. These are just plain facts. We should not ignore them and thank god that for the most part we have grown past these petty predudices.
In some places in Latin America these bad old days still exist. In Ecuador, for example, there are groups of predominantly black people that live in almost total isolation from the rest of society.
With regard to the existence of truly “white” people (people of European ancestry) among us, there are some people that could still make a claim of “pure” Spanish blood. I am not one among them. Those that make such claims often are on tenuous ground. We have managed for the most part, to inter-marry ourselves into a diverse group. A fiend of mine from Venezuela, for example, says Venezuelans cannot overcome the “tres choques”: blanco, si; blanco, blanco, si; pero blanco, blanco, blanco, no.
RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
Are you making a contradicting statement or just confused? Didn’t you just say “as whites as the Irish…varied skin tones.” No matter how much you or others may dream of associating yourself with something close to white, white people know that you judge someon’s race by hair, not just by skin tone. I have cousins in the islands and in P.R. with grey eyes and light skin but that doesn’t make them white or anglo and they know it. You see african-americans all the time, who are as pale as casper, but their hair is 100% african and they are black. You see Sri Lankins and Indians who are blacker than Africans but their hair is straighter than straight; but they are not white, nor black. It goes so much deeper than you or them associating themselves with Marsha Brady because they have pale skin. I have freckles, but I am not skipping in the St. Patricks Day Parade. Any Puerto Ricans who think that they are white should carry themselves over to the friendly skies of Mississippi or Louisiana for a while. They’ll help them and you, “Get Real….Real Quick!
RE: RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
Oh my God! Where did all this come from?
Who said that We can not be white? What are you going to tell us now? That there are no black Puerto Ricans? I’ve lived in London for the past 5 years and nobody just by looking at me said ‘that’s a Puerto Rican’. In fact, when people started finding out they where not amazed by the color of my skin, how can they understand the diversity of our skin tones and a Puerto Rican can’t?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
You also seem to view our racial makeup from a US racist point of view. Please read my message from March 19. The concept of “white” from an american point of view is not necessarity based on biology, genetics, or what you look like. Historically, its been and continues to be a concept of exclusion, which has often excluded groups that are now considered white (the Irish, Jews, Italians, and others). In this country you can become “white”, if you suit the purpose of the excluding group.
Puerto Ricans are racially diverse (). That includes whites (from a biological point of view, not as defined by the US standard, blacks, and native-americans (Tainos). Believe or not, there are some of us that are not racially mixed. Some of us are only white (of European stock), some are only black (mostly west African). The only racial group that you may not find a representative of “pure” blood are Tainos, because our white ancestors slaughtered most of them and what little of them remained were slowly killed off by European deseases. Those that survived likely were of mixed blood, able to survive these killer bugs.
Most of us, however, are of mixed blood. Interestingly enough, a large portion of the US population is also of mixed blood, similar to our own. Many “white” americans would be shocked to find out their family history, if they just bothered to look.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
Do you really feel in your heart that you are white? Well, I have freckles on my face from Irish lineage BUT I am not WHITE. In fact, the original settlers of Ireland were Black, did you know that? But if you tell that to a WHITE Puerto Rican of Irish lineage, they will practically choke on their gandules. But please, don’t take my word on it, look it up in an ancient Irish history book. Did I say that there are not Puerto Ricans of African (black)descent? No, I DID NOT. Is Mediterrenean WHITE? Are you one of those few Puerto Ricans that have traced all of their ancestors & can be 100% positive that even if you marry another white Puerto Rican (who has 100& so called pure “white” blood & has traced only white ancestors) that you would never wold give birth to a Puerto Rican mixed or partially African child? Or, would their brown skin just be a lucky “tan”? Newsflash – You can’t really look at anyone and be sure what their racial makeup is. Diversity of skin tone and being one race or the other are not the same thing or the only deciding factors. If skin tone is now the deciding factor, I’d better go tell my green/grey eyed relatives with light skin they are now white & you’ve spoken with the Queen & she can’t wait to welcome them with open arms for an oppurtunity date & marry her son.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
“Original settlers of Ireland black?” If you refer to the NYTimes article that was published recently, the original inhabitants of Ireland were from Spain–based on genetic analysis.
PS–why do people on this board continue to use the word “race” as if something real were being talked about? I mean, with all due respect, have you folks taken any biology or physixal anthropology class lately? Even science is moving away from the word-for a simple reason: there ain’t no such thing. Until people around the world appreciate that fact, we will continue to talk about phantoms. It’s almost like talking about god–no one can point to him/her, yet we like to pretend something meaningful is being said when talking about this (supposed) deity.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
Excellent analysis!!
RE: Multicultural CaCa!
“We are Multicultural, We are a mixture of this, We are Beautiful, We are the Chosen people, We are better then those rednecks and steretyped Blacks”…Let’s get real familia here’s the knowledge:
Formorians conquered Ireland, they ran it and intermarried with the people for many years and yes, they were of African Ancestry.
The term “Black” is not relating to Race but to culture, see the writings of all major Black scholars such as Basil Davidson and Harold Courlander.
The Younglords already had this discussion in the 70’s and they came up with the conclusion that we are an AFRO-TAINO people.
The Tainos, if that is the term we want to use for them, were far from pure. Hey, what happened to those African Cousins who came to the “New World” before that Murderer Columbus and helped the Indigenous people build Pyramids?(See Ivan VAn Sertima)
Y TU ABUELA DONDE ESTA? Why is it that the majority of those things we call Puerto Rican culture primarily come from African roots with Taino flavors?
The Spaniards where not culturally “White”, please see the Moors, and Hannibal, and Hebrews who ran Spain and helped Civilize the people who didn’t believe in Bathing, or Sciences, etc…
You want to see if this country we reside in thinks we are White or Black, Look at a book called “Latin American Caricature”.
Why do we always have to be this slave mentality of one identity. You can be of Dual Identities.
Yo soy Boricua, therefore Moreno,therefore Indio therefore Asiatico, therefore I am. Have any of you ever read Willie’s poem.
There is no such thing as a white Puerto Rican, your skin tone might be light but your culture and language are anti white culture. What is white culture? Ask the ancestors of those who were lynched.
See “How the Irish Became White”.
Puerto Rican people are just as Racist as Americans, Pelo Bueno, Pelo Malo!
If you’re going to post, please do your research and don’t state some corny polls. Wow, I wonder were the “Salsa” and the “Arroz Con Gandules” we all love to eat come from? For the record, I think that we are an Afro-Taino people with stronger cultural roots to that category which has been labeled negative since day one-Black! So I guess, I’m both, and much more….
Maybe this is why Chano Pozo and Tito got along so well with their African Jazz family!
RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa! But true!
Your mixing a lot of histories and taking many leaps of questionable truth but your spirit is admirable. If we are all black, then what are we talking about? And what is this talk of civilizing anyone? Every culture that exists on earth has its own form of being. Race is subjective–we know this. Just as much as evaluating who is civilized involves subjective values. The language we speak is Spanish, the clothes we wear are western or European in origin, our foods are a mixture of influences just as our music is. Will you say that the danza is of African origin? Or that the “classical” music of PR is African? Even when we look at the culture in totality there are varying levels of influence. What of painting, literature? We are a mixture of all the races but these mixtures are not evenly distributed throughout the population. Therefore some are white and some are black and many are mixed. Is this subjective–yes! And so is yours statement. The Irish are definitely not black and you only have to go there to see that they are not. Let’s not deceive ourselves.
RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
The book, They Came Before Columbus, is at THIS point, as unproven as the view that aliens helped the Egyptians buiold the pyramids. It is unsubstantiated. Possible, yet unproven. As to the Hebrews (Jews?) “civilizing” Spain, ahgain, ther’s NO evidence for any such notion (please don’t mention the “missing” tribes).PRs share Indian, African and Spanish blood–arroz con gandules,and salsa are examples of the triethnic composition of the islanders.
BTW, the Irish were conquered by Angles, Saxons and Vikings, NOT Moors, Africans or any other group. If you’re going to make historical claims, please cite your sources. History requires a lot of work and dedication, and as a history major, nothing annoys me more than unsubstantiated claims held by a tiny, tiny minority of (mostly) nonhistorians.
Finally, I don’t think you understand racism–the ism at the end means it is a system, not just a viewpoint. PRs cannot be racist until they have the power to pass laws and exclude others based on certain features. Yes, PRs may discriminate (to prejudge) but that is not the same as racism, just ignorance. As to how the Irish became white, that’s easy–their children lost the Irish accent and moved into positions of power/leadership, especially in Boston, NYC and Philadelphia. They might have been Irish, but at least they were not Black, Mexican or Chinese. Pretty simple, really. Finally, Willie Colon is a great musician, but he’s no historian (as he would be the first to admit)
RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa! But true!
ksmit – There are plenty of black Irish, whether or not you realize that. I for one come from an English / Irish background and have very brown skinned / black features. My uncle, a black man received a major journalism award from the Irish Heritage Association in Washington D.C., a couple of years ago for his news reporting. So, please, if you don’t have accurate information – please refrain from making mis-informed statements.
RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
Ireland was first settled by a sea faring people, who were of Negro ancestory. The person who posted that message was telling the truth. Even if you don’t agree with her statement, please let her ingite in you a quest for the truth (a.k.a. read a book). I am of Irish heritage and know that she is telling the truth. If you haven’t studied my culture, how can you claim that others are so wrong????
RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
So, because you are of Irish heritagem, statements others make about the Iish are true? The lady posted NO reference–nor did I dismiss her just to dismiss her. What is the source for the statement? where is the book?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
Second point: how do you know I have not studied Irish history? I am not unwilling to engage in most points of view, but there’s a limit. I will not entertain historical claims that are not backed up, no matter what the topic at hand is. I also don’t bellieve in creationism, but am willing to look at the position if sources are cited.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa! But true!
Yes, and there are also black Englishmen. Who said that there aren’t. To claim that the Irish are black or that the English are black is another thing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
It seems to me that this debate is really going off in a strange direction since we were discussing race relations among Puerto Ricans. Be that as it may, to Alice B. I would say that Elegua makes no racial reference but uses black to refer to culture. And she states this quite flatly–that she is not talking about race but culture. Secondly, it is not likely that a seafaring people–which Africans historically have not been–from the tropics would have survived a trip North. And being somewhat a historical materialist, I would have to add and ask why would they make the effort to go there? The North Africans who are racially diverse–have journeyed far and wide. But this is much later in the 13th through 17th Centuries and, of course, I am referring to the Moors who were mostly a Semitic people. This seems to always be glossed over any modern discussions of the Moors. But remember that Malcolm X modified his views when he travelled to Mecca and saw white Moslems.
Further, I agree with Victor.
RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
You should take a trip to Puerto Rico and talk to the Ferrer family or any number of the well-to-do-families and see how anti-white their culture is!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We are diverse and I like that
speak what correctly?
spanish… oh so what is that?
go to puerto rico and tell me
you hear “correct” spanish or
go to colombia and tell me you
hear correct spanish or go to spain
you’ll hear different spanish-es…
which one is correct? if some one
from fajardo comes to nueva york, will
they speak correct nuyorican???
just a pregunta to show you how
incorrect you are in believing in
the correct.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
For people to state that ancestors who have mastered geometry, built earthquake proof building, performed brain surgery thousands of years ago, and live in a country that is surrounded by Oceans, be completely ignorant to far sea travel is ridiculous. Guess what, Spain and Portugal didn’t become a major seafaring power until they started trading with their African counterparts. Nobility, Victor have you ever heard of Timbuctoo? How many of these European “civilized” people sent their children to learn about nobility and the importance of bathing?
As for the Moors, People they came through and mostly from Africa. Islam didn’t become a major religion until the emergence of Bilal(Who was African) into Islam. Or let’s go Back, where was Hannibal who conquered most of the European world from?
Come on, I have yet to see a so called “Historian” who has really disproven what Van Sertima has researched. Mind you, Van Sertima so called “claims” are based on years of research, much of what he says is based on old knowledge that many “Historians” and Archeologists have been saying for years but were disgarded because of racism. I too am a history major and I’m speaking on fact, maybe if you would just admit that the majority of “History” books are Eurocentric and completely ignore people of African Descent you would see that these people traveled the world. Also, many of the “claims” brough by Van Sertima and many others have been substantiated by Anglo counterparts who have built boats from african materials and sailed between the old and new worlds. Black is a culture not a racial categorization. My insistance that we are an Afro-Taino people come from observance and study into the subject. Please see the “Four-Storeyed Eye Country”, “Divide Borders” by Juan Flores, and the article on Race in the last issue of CENTRO from the Centro De Estudios PR’s in Hunter College where Boricua researchers have done their homework. As for your statement that what about those things you stated where of European roots in Puerto Rico, I can easily find their African roots by doing the homework. Have you? This is not a debate but rather a point, curious that when ever anyone mentions the word “Black” in a conversation regarding Puerto Rico we all get nervous and deny this aspect or down play the subject. Look at ancient Irish custom and look at ancient African civilizations and tell me that the two aren’t connected? If only Mr. Schomburg where alive today he could shed more light into this discussion? I wonder why a Puerto Rican man (Schomburg) would dedicate his life to African Studies and base himself in a Black neighborhood? Why would one of the biggest center’s dedicated to Puerto Rican roots be based in a Black context? But then again what do I know, I’m just a Latino Man trying to survive while empowering others. “Y tu abuela donde esta, y tu abuela donde esta”…. Long Live Luis Pales Matos!!!!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
Your overall point (I think) that PRs get “nervous” whenever the African roots are presented, may be true, but is totally irrelevant to the discussion. Since I don’t speak for all (or even some) Prs, let them answer this charge (whomever they might be). My concern is the vast number of statements made here that are just incorrect, so let’s begin.
(1) The position being set forth is nothing more than Afrocentrism–which is just as bad as Eurocentrism; namely, the view that everything of major importance was done by Africans. Hell, Socrates even stole his philosophy from the Egyptians! Pure silliness, just as Europeans held that civilization was unknown to Africans or Natives on this side of the world. (Africans performing brain surgery? I think not, though they did perform cataract surgery–so did the Incas and Mayans, and they’re not Africans–of course if the Irish were established by Africans, then perhaps so were the Incas and Mayans and Aztecs, and Cahokians, and Missisippians…you get the point.
(2) Yes, I’ve heard of Timbuktu–it was a center of African knowledge (impressive university and library); however, that “many” Europeans sent their kids there is also incorrect. SOME did–the wealthy. However, this is a tiny tiny number of European society (it also didnt seem to do much good, since regular bathing was STILL unknown when Europeans came to this part of the world). Europeans did not send their children to Africa to learn about “nobility,” whatever that is–Europe was ruled by kings/queens, and the royal courts took care of this lesson.
(3) Your remark on Islam is also (at a minimum) questionable; Islam became a major faith starting with the end of the Prophet’s life, and really accelerating in the First Caliphate; by 732 (Battle of Tours) Islam almost swept into Europe. Yes, Moors did eventually become synonomous with black (esp. in Spain), but in fact, Moors married anyone–the unifying factor was Islam, not skin color.
(4) You “have yet to see a so called Historian” [an interesting phrase–historians who disagree with you and your peculiar position are so-called historians? Circular reasoning, and quite, quite wrong–as a history major, you should know better] not be able to refute Van sertima; or rather, “really disproven” (what does THAT mean?). Look more closely, especially at American historians (either language–by American, I mean all on this side of the world) and you will see that there is (as of yet) NO evidence for any African influence–in fact, it’s quite insulting if you think about it–only Africans were the major civilization in the world. How silly. How wrong.
(5) Many of the claims have been substantiated–the burden of proof is on you. How many? What claims? When? Does anyone disagree? Here “Anglo” historians serve you quite well all of a sudden (guess they’re not “so called” historians, after all). Years of research is not an adequate standard–what of those creationist who, based on years of research, tell us that god created the world no more than 10,000 years ago? Who cares? Either your evidence stands up or it doesnt–length of time is irrelevant.
(6) So I should admit that history texts are Eurocentric? I admit it; so what? History texts HAVE been getting better in the last 15 years and will continue to do so. It does NOT mean that ALL historians (or “so called historians”) are always right ALL the time (look at the recent debate over how exactly the Indians got here). However, I will not then swing to the other exteme, and say that all (or most) technological innovations, philosophies, religions, sciences, art, music, etc. were heavily influenced by Africa. I wouldnt say this for any other center of civilization, either. It was PEOPLE who created, quite a bit independently from others.
(7) I dont think anyone would disagree that we are a Taino-African people–but also a Spanish one–I know, I know, the Spanish were also black! (sigh). As to your point that we PRs get all nervous about black roots, this is also quite wrong; but as stated before, I will let PRs answer this (have you read the previous posts? I think you’ll see this is at a minimum questionable.
(8) So Schomburg spent his life looking at African roots in PR. Yes he did–we should be grateful–the point is, why would he be exempt? If he’d stated positions that were wrong, then they should be criticized and rejected. Why did he base himself in a black neighborhood? Maybe he was black? Or looked it? The point is that this is also irrelevant (as a substantive point) but was also reflective of the fact that he wouldnt be allowed to live in a white neighborhood. You think?
(9) Similarities between Irish and African customs? Not Anglo-Saxon or Scandanavian or Viking? Hmm. I note how you didn’t even mention one similarity between the two that shows the Irish were “civilized” by the Africans.
That’s all for now.
The Ancient Greeks
During their flourishing period under Pericles, when philosophy significantly developed in secular form and geometry was given a theoretical foundation, the ancient greeks still had not invented or borrowed a plow. Keep this in mind when trying to use circumstantial inferences to support your argument which is fallacious to begin with.
RE: The Ancient Greeks
Yup, that’s a good point, K! Guess independent discoveries doesn’t count for much anymore. 🙂
Scattered Scriptures of the History Janitor
“Can you post your sources when speaking from so called “fact” and please show me some Latino “non-eurocentric” or “non-afrocentric” scholars who back YOUR claims”
REPLIES TO YOUR LAST POST:
It is not to say that we replace a Eurocentric construct with a bias Afrocentric one, just that we must actually take the time to study the facts. Mr. Schomburg created a huge and detailed library and history collection that spans the Black and Latino experience, can you say that as a historian you have done the same? Have you actually studied the complete history of Puerto Rican people? Have you spoken to Boriqua scholars? Have you spoken to people from Africa and Black Scholars on this subject? I’m just curious as to how you make these “historical” assertions. Mind you that you are saying that he’s (Schomburg) wrong!!! Eso es Loco!!!! Yes, he is not perfect and did make mistakes but it is very hard to find actual historians who have done the work that he has and in his field which was basically ignored until he came along. He lived in Harlem and worked there because our lovely “American Historians” wouldn’t have him living next to them in Segregated times speaking against the bias that was their hippocrisy. Un Puertoriqueño could only live next to the Brothers because that was the one place we could find safety in an oppressive white world. (See the Memoirs of Bernando Vega and Down these Mean Streets)
Islam WAS on a decline until the rise of Bilal(Do you know who this Is?!?) and more converts by Muhammad from Africa, speak to an Iman who has actually studied the history. Muhammad was condemned early in his life for his beliefs and it wasn’t until later with greater numbers that the faith spread (Sometimes by Force).
The Moors did marry with Many, so does that mean that their offspring are no longer African or culturally “Black”? Remember that the people who ran Spain prior to the Moors where the Barbaric tribes such as the Visigoths. What great contributions did they make when they weren’t being conquered by the Africans such as Hannibal and others? If we are to talk about our Spanish roots then lets look at the complete history of this people, etc…
Look at Irish dance, early religion, and family structure for the comparison to African root. Are you saying that the Formorians didn’t exists, that they in the mind of Van Sertime and others? How about the White Scholar who wrote Black Spark, White Fire! Does he fabricate his claims about the early roots of European civilizations?
There is also a very dark documentary serious titled “Faces of Death” which actually has a segment that shows African tribes performing Brain surgery for people with tumors in the tradition of their ancestors. Don’t ask me which number in the series because it was a while ago that I saw the documentary but check it out for yourself. Yes, we do have many roots but look at PREDOMINANTLY who we are Culturally speaking. That Afro-Taino Root way over rides the colonial Spanish one.
I would love to get more insight into this discussion from other Puerto Rican Scholars and African Diaspora Historians as far as their opinion. As for Van Sertima’s assertions, what do you called a couple of thousand pound heads that resemble African warriors, found in a region where the people don’t look like that and where African historians(See Mandingo Griots-history of Abubakari) themselves cite the year and how they got to the new world. This is not to say that others where not traveling the seas(The Chinese, Indigenous Groups from South America, The Vikings) but that if you look at those groups who were using cutting edge technology, you would find a point of reference that points mostly to Africa (Hey, La gente Africana estaban aqui primero! I didn’t write it like that, just ask Dr.Lekey and his Tanzanian bones). History books have gotten some what better but at the cost of trying to be politically correct and none if any of the writers look and talk like us. Are we to trust others to write our history for us? Particularly when the history shows that the conquerer loves to distort facts for his own self-gratification. The slave trade is a great example of this. This is not to say that there aren’t Black Scholars who are not Bias but rather, if you do the digging and research you will find those who know what they are talking about. So tell me, when did you speak to Van Sertima about his facts? He’s easily accesible at Rutgers I believe? Maybe a trip to Jersey could be your chance as a historian to prove that he has no basis for his so called “claims”. Words are a very powerful thing in our community and we must take the time to investigate people who write our history to see if they are really true to themselves and us.
I think a trip to Nigeria or the Congo should be in order to discover who we are. Don’t be surprise when you ask for the traditional meal and your African Brothers and Sisters give you a plate or Arroz con Gandules and Tostones!!! Anyway, here are some proven scholars and writers you can check to see that their is proof for my assertions and please read and research their stuff: JD Rogers, J.D. FAGE, Basil Davidson, Harold Courlander, African Presence in the Americas-Moore, EAgle and the Jaguar-Blasini, “Four Storeyed Eye Country”-Jose Gonzalez?, “Santeria Aesthetics” -Arturo Lindsay, “How the Irish Became White”- Ingatiev, “Who is Black” – F. James Davis, “The Golden Trade of the Moors”-Bovill, “THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION”-Chancellor Williams, “Scattered Scriptures”-Luis Reyes Rivera, “Down these Mean Streets” Piri Thomas, (Have you read any of these during your historical research? In not, Why? Also, have you been to the African-American/Caribbean Cultural Institute in Nueva Yol? Señora Marta Moreno Vega is a very good reference for looking up Puerto Rican history facts)
Many of these books have excellent reference footnotes as to how they obtained their information since you asked for proof particularly Mr. Rivera’s which took 20 years to write. The late Mr.Rogers was a stickler for showing proof as was Mr. Williams. The timbuktu school point was to show you that Europeans learned much of their “nobility” and “etiquette” from their souther neighbors when they weren’t busy making them slaves. This shows a pattern for how movements into Arab and African territories during the middle ages helped bring enlightment into Europe during the Dark Ages by obtaining “Black” culture and technology.
So everyone asks, “What does this have to do with Borinken?”. Well, we can’t know where we are going if we don’t know where we’ve been? Multicultural CaCa! Who isn’t Multicultural? In this racist land, it’s sad but true either Blanco o Negro, there’s no middle ground. When the time arises, which will we choose? What are Race relations among Boricuas? Let’s say that sayings like “Pelo Bueno and Pelo Malo” which still survive to this day tell the story….THE SOUND OF LA FANIA ECHOES IN THE BACKGROUND OF THE SCHOLAR’S BARRIO WHILE PUERTO RICAN MUSICIANS PLAY AFRICAN DRUMS PRETENDING TO BE THE GRIOTS OF THE PAST……….
RE: Scattered Scriptures of the History Janitor
You are operating under what is known as the “shotgun approach,” where one doesnt have to aim at the target, but pieces of the shot will hit something–anything. The responses are extensive, and I will look over this over the weekend, but thus far nothing said nor anything quoted prove your points. All these sources prove (and BTW, my impression based on some of the works cited, which I HAVE read/consulted [I wonder why Afrocentrists always begin attacking those who disagree, but that’s a nonpoint in my book]that it’s quite easy to pick and choose among historians to prove one’s erroneous point. Note I NEVER said there was not an impressive series of African cultures–who would deny that? I did (and still do) disagree with the majority of your claims, and thus far, you have basically repeated the same nonsense–the big heads which Afrocentric historians seem to think with almost mastubatory pleasure prove Africans were here are in fact OLMEC heads, another impressive preColumbian civilization–I know, I know they are also black (sigh)–and the Olmecs are not at all African. This is similar to “debating” with creationists, and in fact there is a great deal of similarity with the two camps–the quoting only of sources which agree with one’s position, the misquoting of the opponent’s position, ad hominem attacks, etc. But I will post a point by point answer to your post, do not fear.
No one disagrees that the roots of PR culture are also African–when did I? In fact, if you reread the end of my last post, you’ll see it very clearly stated. I don’t object to ALL you wrote–even in error there is SOME truth. I DO disagree with major portions of what you stated, because I’m very familiar with the position (You might have forgotten to include Martin Bernal as another “source,” though the man is a joke among linguists, historians, archeologists, etc. But I digress). I also have no objection to Schomburg, but think your interpretation of his work is seriously flawed–he simply showed that blacks have contributed to American history–who except racists disagree? But again, let me stete: I TOTALLY disagree with major, major portions of your thesis, including the Irish-Black claim and your historical view of Islam’s spread is seriously flawed. Time to take some courses with “historians.” But I’ll be back!
RE: RE: Scattered Scriptures of the History Janitor
Victor,
For the Record, I am not an AfroCentrist and I TOTALLY AGREE that many afrocentrist do have a one sided view of seeing things. Many of those books I listed show different opinions and research from many perspectives, you only have to do the research and come to your own conclusions. All I’m stating is that from a cultural perspective we are Afro-Taino people and that “historians” have a long history of denying the Afro part(Even including those black and Latino historians who distort for their own selfish gains).
Do your own research and you will see that Black is a culture and not a racial construct(Unless we’re talking from the White Racist Perspective). Also, you are seriously minimizing Arturo’s work. One of the biggest African-American historians John Henry Clarke quotes Schomburg(A puerto rican Man) as his reason for becoming a historian. Arturo did more then just show african roots if you study his whole life.
Make sure you give Van Sertima a call in Rutgers and check out Louis Reyes Rivera’s work. Mr.Rivera is also in Nueva Yol and can easily be access if you ask around(He’s not an “AFRO-CENTRIST). Just because you study African roots doesn’t mean you’re an AFRO-CENTRIST(I leave that categorization to Leonard Jeffries and Amiri Baraka or Karenga)
Yes, time to take some more courses with Historian but how many of them are actually Boricua or Black? There is no shotgun approach just a constant theme that African people did travel the world and contributed greatly to our society just like Asians and Native Americans, etc.. Why is it so hard to accept the fact that Africans could have traded and intermarried with the Olmecs and other society’s. Or that these two society’s could have merged? Remember that this is a huge body of work that can’t be dismissed in a couple of paragraphs or a couple of one sided history courses. Whole conferences have occurred on the issue of Race in the Puerto Rican community and Identity. Go check out the Centro De Estudios PR’s and talk to Juan Flores about Puerto Rican Identity or please, please, check out Mrs. Vega.
Also, I’m not saying that Africans populated Ireland or are the sole contributers of culture, I’m just saying that there was interaction between these two groups and many others in Europe. Also, my point on Islam is based on discussions with Iman’s who study the history of their religion.(See Destruction of Black Civilization-By Chancellor Williams).
I opened up this discussion to show what race relations among our people shows. By studying the race dynamics from a cultural and historical perspective we can come to some conclusions as to why we always claim this multicultural caca when it comes to issues of race and identity. By claiming multicultural we take the easy way out of dealing with internal racist notions like “Pelo this, and that” that continue to be propagated into today. In any case, at least you have the drive to study these subjects rather then live blind. We need more Latino Scholars in our communities.
Adios.
PS-Those Irish had to get their soul from somewhere, tell me that tap dancing and the River dance don’t look the same!(LOL)
“MILLIONS OF AFRO-AMERICANS (BLACKS) IN SOUTH AMERICA, THE ANTILLES and the United States grow up in a European-American environment and without any knowledge of AFRICAN CULTURE. Except for the colour of their skins they are Americans like any others. Yet the others think this colour a blemish and let those in question feel it. THUS THE AFRO-AMERICAN IS CONSTANTLY REMINDED OF HIS ORIGIN, WHICH HAS OTHERWISE OFTEN LOST ALL MEANING FOR HIM” FRANTZ FANON from the Book “MUNTU”-African Culture and the Western World By Janheinz Jahn (A white Historian)
Check out “Ay, Ay, Ay, for the Kinky Black Woman” By Julia De Burgos (She Identifies herself as Black but clearly this was not the visual picture) As you know, Señora Burgos was one of the most famous Boricua poets to grace the literary world.
White Ribbons
In one of the pictures from Vieques I noticed an elderly woman standing next to a fence covered in white ribbons. In an article elsewhere I read the ribbons stood for Peace. In honor of this woman and Vieques, I have placed a white ribbon on the attenae of my car. In addition, I have copied the Marina Fuera Sign and placed it in my car window. I encourage all Vieques supporters to do the same.
Everyone, Place a White Ribbon on your car, trees, picket signs, etc to symbolize the fight for Naval freedom in Vieques.
In the 90’s I was a yellow ribbon supporter of the Troops in Gulf War. I had many college friend and school teachers called to the war. While the ribbons themselves did not bring them home, The display of the yellow ribbons everywhere supported our friends and loved ones as called by the military.
I knew people of all ages, all walks of life and all races supporting and knowing what these ribbons were for. It is a similiar story with the pink ribbons for breast cancer awareness and other ribbons for causes. When people do not know what the ribbons mean, they ask questions and we can share the information to spread awareness of the plight of Vieques.
Please everyone, Find a White Ribbon somewhere and Show the fight for Vieques is not ending with a few demonstrations here and there. The large battle is at hand. We must spread the word of Vieques and get more people involved.
I am so happy to see that there are so many cities having demonstatrations, but there should be more.
We need to write letters, send emails, and encourage our representatives to have a bill passed to cease Naval activites in Vieques. The time is now. Voting seasons will be coming soon, and we need all the votes and supporters we can muster. The pictures have helped, but Everyone needs to know.
GODPEACE
Vieques SI
Marina NO
PEACE TO VIEQUES No More BOMBS (concrete or Live!)
I was born in Guayama, Puerto Rico in 1983, moved to Boston, in 1987, so i’m not sure about the island very much, but being here in the US has taught me that if your not anglo white, than it doesn’t matter if your puertorican white, puertorican brown, ect., or any other spanish race, if your not white your not gonna be treated like your expected to be treated, its just that a person thats black is more likely to be a victim of racism than any other person on the planet.
when i was a young person living in New York City, i never knew anything about being black, all i knew is that i was different from the American blacks because my family spoke spanish and listened to spanish music and carried ourselves differently. However, i learned quickly that here in America, if you carry African-American features despite being Puerto rican, you are a black man who speaks spanish and they wll refer you to as a “Niger” inferior in intelligence, most likely to land in prison, living and carrying on in a dysfunctional family setting and all the stereo types that go along with being African-American. It wasn’t until my own people thought i was black and a few who at first showed that same prejudice against a dark skin that blacks were shown by whites that i decided to conduct deep rooted researches on my dark skinned people in the island and in other Afro-latino island such as in cuba and santo domingo. It is confusing in many regards to assume that there is no racism in Puerto rico, and then to discover that your neighbor who is a white Puerto rican, did not allowed her young white Puerto rican daughter to date my dark skinned cousin. I became confused then and it deepened my confusion when white and black puerto ricans stood in the same side to fight off African-American blacks and American whites. We stuck together here in New YOrk when other cultures tried to invade us, yet however, at times, we, us darkskinned puerto ricans who carried the African bloodline were ridiculed by our lighter skinned brothers with straight hair and blue eyes. We at times showed great unity as a whole when it involved a island athlete, like roberto clemente or felix Trinidad, however, there were other times when lighter female mothers would not allowed their daughters to date a negrito as we were refered to because we would mess up the race. Very confusing. Even more antagonizing to not want to accept me as their race, not all, but some by insisting that i was mix or Dominican but for the most part, it deepened my quest to discover where i came from, and what it means to be a Puerto Rican. I believe that the darker you are as a puerto rican, the more you had to improve the dialect of the spanish accent. If you already look like a Boricua, there is no need to make the effort to convince the public that you are Puerto rican but the average joe will automatically assume that you are black if you look black unless a spansih word comes out of your mouth to indicate that you may look black but in reality, are Puerto Rican. I am realizing now that dark skins in Puerto rico and in dominican republic are second to them, just go to the banks and airports and see who are running the big time jobs and who are just working for them, doing labor. That is why i believe that so many do marry lighter skinned to improve the race so that their children may look more like the Puerto ricans that showcase American television….
Hello all. I stumbled across this archive while looking for a specific group. I am African American/Black/Moreno/Negro (whatever sounds better today). I am looking for a any websites that are devoted to Blacks who speak spanish fluently. The reason why is because aside from the very publicized view of the “Black/Latino conflict”, there is an growing undercurrent of Blacks who do appreciate Latino culture. I speak/read/write spanish; dance Salsa, Merengue, Bachata, Seis, Bomba, y Plena; salsa encebollada con camarones; help the Latino community as a member of the Palm Beach County Health Department for those who don’t speak english; and generally live 90% of my life in a spanish speaking culture. Despite all of the problems of culture, race, and class I just wanted to say that I appreciate my experiences very much and I wouldn’t trade them for anything.
hola a todos ustedes… well i was born in san diego california and i was raised in san juan puerto rico y despues yo me vine back a los estados unidos, now i live here in san diego once again to attend San Diego State University and i live in the dorms….. i havent seen my mother in 8 years because she stayed there in PR. pero im fine. bueno i really enjoy reading all these thins everyone has to say…and i admitt it is very ineresante y me encentaria ser parte de su conversasiones vale??
I can call this the story of my life and of many other Boricuas.
Que viva Puerto Rico y que todas sus voces se unan en un solo canto de esperanza a la soberania.
Letra: Juan Antonio Corretjer
Música: Roy Brown
Boricua en la luna
Desde las ondas del mar
que son besos a su orilla,
una mujer de Aguadilla
vino a New York a cantar.
Pero no, solo a llorar
un largo llanto y morir.
De ese llanto yo nací
como la lluvia una fiera.
Y vivo en larga espera
de cobrar lo que perdí.
Por un cielo que se hacía
mas feo mas más volaba
a Nueva York se acercaba
un peón de Las Marías
Con la esperanza, decía,
de un largo día volver.
Pero antes me hizo nacer
Y de tanto trabajar
se quedo sin regresar:
reventó en un taller.
De una lagrima soy hijo
y soy hijo del sudor
y fue mi abuelo el amor
único en mi regocijo
del recuerdo siempre fijo
en aquel cristal del llanto
como quimera en el canto
de un Puerto Rico de ensueño
y yo soy Puertorriqueño,
sin na, pero sin quebranto.
Y el “echón” que me desmienta
que se ande muy derecho
no sea en lo mas estrecho
de un zaguán pague la afrenta.
Pues según alguien me cuenta:
dicen que la luna es una
sea del mar o sea montuna.
Y así le grito al villano:
yo sería borincano
aunque naciera en la luna.
as a latino -of non puerto-rican descent ill tell you many of us view puerto ricans as black. regardless of your color!you guys dress and talk just like them so yea i dont consider you guys latino
RE: Reply
There’s a group of post Modernist Marxist-Leninist who are pro-statehood and believe that Puerto Rico is not a country and could never be a nation in the classic sense of nation. Meaning, I presume, England, France, Germany, the U.S. In fact, they believe many nations that were former colonies and that remain locked in a neocolonial condition are really pseudo nations. I believe they call themselve Radical Statehooders–something of this sort.
RE: RE: Racist policy against Puerto Rico
On whose terms should they want it? Yours, Joe Shmo, the U.S. government? Get real.
Boricuas and Race and Jose Luis Gonzalez
I agree with you. It is a mistake to elevate the african over and above the Taino and Spanish influence, as Gonzalez does. And it clearly points to his bias and, I believe, americanization. To wit, in his discussion of Jose Campeche, the Puerto Rican painter who was much more sophisticated than any of his North American contemporaries, Gonzalez assumes that because Campeche was of mixed descent, he is to be considered black or of African descent whereas he clearly states that he was mulatto. Further, it seems strange for him to claim Jose Campeche as an example of the African influence on Puerto Rican culture since Campeche was of mixed descent and was completely involved in a European activity of painting in a totally Spanish/European style–stockings and all. I never understood why he just glosses over these facts.
RE: RE: RE: Boricuas and Race
Hey, did you ever get back to us?
RE: For Americans we are basically black
In America, if you have one drop of black blood, then you are considered black. that has been true since slavery, whereas, in other parts of the Americas, if you have “only” one drop of black blood, then you are not considered black. so what’s the difference between a light-skinned African-American and a same-complected Puerto Rican, genetically speaking? most likely, not much.
as far as how history is taught in schools, i totally disagree. if you are speaking of American history, be aware that, for most of America’s history, it has been black and white. African-Americans have been in this country before it was a country and before most all other Americans. so, how can you compare centuries of American history between blacks and whites going years back, with multiculturalism, which only begins to occur within the last century?
so, if 2nd and 3rd generation Puerto Rican kids in New York grow up breakdancing and rapping, and dressing and talking like African-American youth, maybe it’s because they can relate to the rhythm and the frustration as any other African-American kid.
RE: RE: For Americans we are basically black
I agree with you on racial nomenclature and in fact would go further to state that this clearly establishes racial categories as being subjective and cultural bound.
American history or the writing and teaching of it has been and is a black and white thing. Multiculturalism as a discipline is new but the reality is that this country has been populated by many different people who had a profound effect on the development of the U.S. The indigenous population for one, the Latino population for another, have been dealing with the Anglo presence since the first landing at Roanoke. So that the ACTUAL history of the U.S., as with other nations in the Americas, has always involved other groups, outside of the dominant one. The WRITING and TEACHING of U.S. American history has and continues to be represented as a black and white thing. The fact that you think multiculturalism is new is very clearly an indication of this. To further disabuse you of the notion that multiculturalism even exists beyond the show of words, I submit to you that the word multiculturalism is basically 90’s word and now the new millenium’s word for minority. Occasionally that retrogressive word makes its appearance to shock and offend.
Yes, I also agree with your latter point that there are issues of class as well as race that come into play in discussing intergroup relations. I would also like to submit that Puerto Ricans as some African American rappers have stated were directly involved in the development of rap and what has lately come to be known as urban culture. The point I was actually trying to make was that very specific government policies aided and abetted the marginalization of Puerto Ricans, to the point of annihilating their culture and identity, and that this was connected with Puerto Ricans being perceived as black.
RE: RE: For Americans we are basically black
I’m getting pretty tired of people behaving as though White Puerto Ricans don’t exist. I also get annoyed when some people say that there are NO pure (for lack of a better word) races among the Puerto Ricans. Pure races being Africans, Spanish or the true Puerto Ricans, the Tainos Indians — as well as people of mixed race!
Also, the first people of the United States were Native American Indians, not Africans.
RE: RE: RE: For Americans we are basically black
Yes, I agree that it is very frustrating to be ignored, misperceived, misunderstood and abused. I have seen white Puerto Rican children singled out for abuse either verbal or physical in public school. And I further believe that there are a lot of historical distortions that basically serve a political agenda here in the States.
RE: RE: RE: Boricuas and Race
Aparentemente, no se entiende el ser sarcastico!
race and puerto ricans
i find this topic both compelling and frustrating. my experience as a fair skinned puerto rican has been different from dark skinned puerto ricans, even in my own family. we as a people,and everyone for that matter needs to stop their favoritism for what is perceived as white latino or black latino features, traits, etc. i understand that latinos are not a race but it seems that latinos in general have their own racial prejudices within their own group. i really think that is something we have to examine.
i was also told once that racial discrimination does not exist in latin america as in america. however, from my experience in new york, i haven’t met any latinos who do not discriminate based on race, or skin color, regardless if the person is latino. is this true for the island as well?
i really would appreciate any feedback. thanks
RE: RE: RE: For Americans we are basically black
It amazes me that we insist on talking about “racial” this or “racial” that, when in fact there is no such thing. It’s like the amusing (yet sad) “arguments” between a Christian and a Muslim, each insisting that the phantom known as god they both preach is the right one–a simple answer, is that there is no such thing; god is a myth. So is “race” We do not talk about the “race” of roses being better than the “race” of lilies, so why do we allow ourselves to fall in to the imposed trap and do this with humans? When the “little green men” from Mars are discovered, then one can talk about the races. All one can talk about today are (superficial) ethnic differences.
RE: race and puerto ricans
I think there are excellent answers to these questions already posted. Suffice it to say, that (though hopefully improving) we as a group have a long way to go until we cease that nonsense of thinking one is better with lighter skin. Of course, we live in one of the most racist countries both in the present and historically, so progress may be slow. However, the fact that we can discuss this, is a major sign of progress!
Poll
This poll of 600 adults residents of Puerto Rico was conducted by American
Viewpoint, Inc., from June 9-11, 1997, with a margin of error of 4.1%.
QUESTIONS FROM U.S.ENGLISH, INC. PUERTO RICO VOTER SURVEY:
1. Do you consider yourself to be only Puerto Rican, only American or BOTH?
65% Puerto Rican
18% Both
16% American
1% Refused/No answer
2. Can you recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States?
63% No
11% I don’t know what that is
26% Yes
3. Do you know the words of “The Star Spangled Banner”?
66% No
5% I don’t know what that is
28% Yes
1% Refused to answer/no answer
4. In general, do you support Commonwealth, Statehood, or Independence for Puerto Rico?
42% Commonwealth (ELA-Colonial Status)
40% Statehood
7% Independence
8% Unsure
4% Refused/No Answer
5. (Asked of those who responded “Commonwealth” in Question 4.)
Would you support statehood if a new Commonwealth does not guarantee
American citizenship for the children of Puerto Ricans in the future?
43% Yes
40% No
8% Maybe (Answer was volunteered)
7% I don’t Know
3% Refused/No Answer
6. (Asked to only those who responded “Statehood” in Question 4.)
Which one of the following is your principal reason for supporting
statehood?
16% Because we would not lose welfare, food stamps and social benefits from Congress and may receive increased benefits.
23% Because I feel American and the United States is my country.
37% Because of the civil rights we will have as American citizens.
16% Because I do not want Independence.
8% Other/I don’t know
7. (Asked of those who responded “Statehood” in Question 4.)
If adoption of English as the only official language of Puerto Rico was a
requirement to Puerto Rico being granted Statehood, would you still favor
Puerto Rico becoming a state?
77% Yes
16% No
5% I don’t Know
2% Refused/No Answer
8. Do you believe that a super-majority of 75% of the vote, rather than a simple plurality of the vote, should be required for the approval of statehood?
57% Yes
29% No
12% I don’t Know
2% Refused/No Answer
9. Have you ever lived in the mainland United States?
53% Yes
46% No
1% Refused/No Answer
Note: The 1990 U.S. Census found that 98.2% of the Puerto Rican population
over the age of five spoke Spanish. Of those that spoke Spanish, 52.3%
spoke no English, 24.1% spoke English with difficulty, and ONLY 23.6%
spoke English well.
This poll of 600 adults residents of Puerto Rico was conducted by American
Viewpoint, Inc., from June 9-11, 1997, with a margin of error of 4.1%.
Copyright (c) 1997 by U.S.ENGLISH, Inc.
“She’s Puerto Rican?” My Story / Mi Historia
My story -are u ready??? I’ve read this question over & over and need at least 10 pages to type my opinion(s) on this forum subject! (abbreviated summary, if that’s what u care to call it):
Brown skin like milk chocolate,
eyes & cheekbones of Taino,
nose & lips of Yoroba, flat butt & voice of a “gringa” so,they tell me (go ahead, u can laugh) – this “Latina” is busting out! Nuyorican & representin,despite being adopted by a black “West Indian” family in the southern U.S.A! Can u believe that? What does that mean, u say?
“She doesn’t look Puerto Rican?” many say. Jamaican, Dominican, Brazilian, anything but-except for the hair-it’s kinda straight, kinda kinky, people stop & stare! Black girls sometimes ask to buy it (is that a weave?), after they call me “white” & ask, why so I want to associate myself with those “triflin” Puerto Ricans. Spanish here many times ask me why do I want to associate myself with the ns? Whites just stare & wonder. Lighter skin minorities say that I’m so close – “Thank God that you have “good” hair, just marry someone lighter than you”. Many Boricua males here tell me in that nice way, “Tringueno(can’t spell) nice, but too dark to consider for a serious relationship.” Yet, still I rise! I was recently passing through P.R and felt so at home! Was I not there long enough to be called “American” not really part of the “isla del encanto” & that my spanish wasn’t good enough? I don’t know – but seeing so many people like me, made me smile! Made me proud! Okay, so I couldn’t tell who was & who wasn’t an “illegal Dominican” that I hear so many complain about & who was Puerto Rican like me, but I didn’t care! The few that embraced me made me feel warm, like I belonged. Okay, so I lost focus-the question of race relations between us, right? Well, We have a long way to go but it’s better than what Ive experienced with black on black & white on black in the south. We are mixed & proud for the most part & beautiful in every way (not just our beautiful island skintones). Now, If only I could get my boyfriend (who I met on a blind date & happens to be light skinned, Puerto Rican, with straight hair) to help me enlighten our people with our struggles- from vieques (our land) to drug abuse prevention (our bodies) and helping others realize that we need to work together(to save “us”)? I mean,aren’t we all one anyway? Unless you are Castillian, aren’t we all “mixed” spanish, taino, african)to a degree?) My experience has made me strong & proud to be Boricua. But, we have a long way to go still and not enough of us care to fight. Fight externally (against forces agaist us, such as some of the negative U.S. influences)& internally (such as the ignorance our own perpetuate-(“cast” society and my own future mother in law asking “why is she so dark?” when she first saw me – when she herself wears an afro! Light Skinned, hair short & soft, but still an afro! Just enough ammuniton for my adopted mother to say “See. I told you so, they won’t accept you”. Yet still I fight and still I rise. Maybe all Puerto Ricans could start by accepting one another to improve our race relations. That would involve accepting the fact that we do discriminate terribly within our own as well as with others. That sure would help someone like me, who has lived in a different place & who looks not like what so many others would assume & who struggles daily to belong because she never felt that she fully belonged (because some of her own look at her & wish that she was dark & invisible, as not to acknowledge their racially mixed past?)feel more like she was welcomed and belonged.(short, rambling, summary of my many thoughts & experiences). All comments welcome. The End. C.S.S.
¿Acaso no somos todos puertorriqueños?
Creo rídiculo el que la gente diga que por que una persona no nació aquí no sea puertorriqueño. El ser puertorriqueño es un sentmiento, un estado de ánimo… El lugar donde uno nace no necesariamente va a determinar mi nacionalidad. Al que nació en EU pero sus padres le mantuvieron encendida la llama del sentimiento patrio y el amor por esta bendita tierra es tan puertorriqueño como yo que desde que nací no me he separado de mi tierra por más de 2 semanas consecutivas. ¿Por qué dividirnos si todos somos hermanos?
Race Relations Among Us
We generaly take great pride, collectively, of our racial diversity and should be very proud of our general tolerance amongst ourselves as well as for those of other cultures. However, in this general love fest, we historically had and continue to have some degree of racial strife, which we often try to ignore.
I stuggled with this within my own family. It was when I became an adult that I finally came to terms with the racial strife that I grew up with. Growing up in New York, I associated racism primarily as an American cultural issue. American racism was clear, unmistakable, and in your face. I blocked out the Puerto Rican racial strife that occurred even within my own family. Despite the fact that since early childhood I had been told of the racial strife within my own family, it never really registered.
My grandmother had recounted the circumstances of my birth, saying that the white members of my family had objected to my mother marrying my mulatto father. My grandmother was deeply troubled by this, as it was her own children that had voiced these objections.
I remember hearing as a boy my uncle taking great pride in indicating that he and his children could trace their ancestry to pure “white” Spanish blood. My cousins would often remind me of how blond and blue-eyed they were!
So, as an adult it finally dawned on me that some members of my own family were racists. What was interesting was that the issue of race among my white relatives was as divergent as it could possibly be.
From my own personal experience, I have found Puerto Ricans living in New York are more tolerant of racial differences than those in the Island. I believe that this is in part due to the origins of the people that migrated to this area. Most of us came from poor, racially diverse families. The upper class, mostly white, Puerto Ricans have generally stayed home. The economic stratification in Puerto Rico is closely linked along racial lines. This whole story is reversed for our Cuban brothers. Their mostly white upper classes were the ones that migrated to this country.
RE: Race Relations Among Us
Could you people stop? According to Arian nation,kkk and other white supremacist propaganda there is no such thing as a white Puerto Rican. As a matter of fact what Puerto Rican of”African or Spanish” light or dark say that he is a pure hemophiliac breed.
RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
Although I myself am olive-skinned. The reality is that there are white Puerto Ricans–as white as the Irish, Italian and Greek. All of whom have skins of varied tones. But they are indisputably white. And who cares what the ignorant Aryan Nation, KKK, etc. think? I define myself. Why insult whites by referring to them as the hemophiliac breed? This is unnecessary. Attack the white supremacists but not all whites. This is as ridiculous and ignorant as prejudice against us however justified your FEELINGs may seem and be.
Mario: Race Relations Among Us
I thought we were discussing race relations amongst ourselves. You seem to identify yourself according to American racists views on what constitutes “white” versus “non-white”. My discussion is based on our hispanic concept of “white”, which is sometimes at odds with the American concept.
Historically, Americans have held the social concept of “white” (because it is a social concept, not a racial one) to exclude a variety of people. During the 19th century it did not include the Irish (Pat Bucanan, the supreme racist, would not have been looked upon kindly in the Republican Party back then). During the early 20th century it did not include the Jews or the Italians. In fact we inherited the term “Spic” from the Sicilians. During the early 20th century there was a version of the current “Bell Curve” theory of the intellectual inferiority of blacks and hispanics, which slated southern Italians and eastern Europeans as intellectually inferior, with statistical IQ tests to back up the theories.
When I speak of “white” I mean the hispanic version which really means “European”. Europeans, themselves, are of mixed race, especially our decendents from Spain. Europeans are as varied racially as our new-world, and African relatives. Consider nordic blonds, celtic red heads, and Mediterrean brunettes. The Mediterraneans are of particular mixed blood, including Greeks, Phoenicians, Arabs, North Africans, Asians (Asian Minor, including Semites).
The term mulatto, mestizo, and others are of the meticulous Spanish racial classification system, not an American concept. Our European ancestors pursecuted the native american tribes, enslaved blacks, and only until recently did not mix their blood with these groups in great number. Spanish familes would often have their wives moved back to Spain, so their children would not be considered “criollos”.
What we currently consider our “folk” music (Plena y Bomba) was often considered “nigger” music, not to played amongst the cultured white folk.
We have gone a long way from from those bad old days, but there is still some traces of the old Spanish racism among us. These are just plain facts. We should not ignore them and thank god that for the most part we have grown past these petty predudices.
In some places in Latin America these bad old days still exist. In Ecuador, for example, there are groups of predominantly black people that live in almost total isolation from the rest of society.
With regard to the existence of truly “white” people (people of European ancestry) among us, there are some people that could still make a claim of “pure” Spanish blood. I am not one among them. Those that make such claims often are on tenuous ground. We have managed for the most part, to inter-marry ourselves into a diverse group. A fiend of mine from Venezuela, for example, says Venezuelans cannot overcome the “tres choques”: blanco, si; blanco, blanco, si; pero blanco, blanco, blanco, no.
RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
Are you making a contradicting statement or just confused? Didn’t you just say “as whites as the Irish…varied skin tones.” No matter how much you or others may dream of associating yourself with something close to white, white people know that you judge someon’s race by hair, not just by skin tone. I have cousins in the islands and in P.R. with grey eyes and light skin but that doesn’t make them white or anglo and they know it. You see african-americans all the time, who are as pale as casper, but their hair is 100% african and they are black. You see Sri Lankins and Indians who are blacker than Africans but their hair is straighter than straight; but they are not white, nor black. It goes so much deeper than you or them associating themselves with Marsha Brady because they have pale skin. I have freckles, but I am not skipping in the St. Patricks Day Parade. Any Puerto Ricans who think that they are white should carry themselves over to the friendly skies of Mississippi or Louisiana for a while. They’ll help them and you, “Get Real….Real Quick!
RE: RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
Oh my God! Where did all this come from?
Who said that We can not be white? What are you going to tell us now? That there are no black Puerto Ricans? I’ve lived in London for the past 5 years and nobody just by looking at me said ‘that’s a Puerto Rican’. In fact, when people started finding out they where not amazed by the color of my skin, how can they understand the diversity of our skin tones and a Puerto Rican can’t?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
You also seem to view our racial makeup from a US racist point of view. Please read my message from March 19. The concept of “white” from an american point of view is not necessarity based on biology, genetics, or what you look like. Historically, its been and continues to be a concept of exclusion, which has often excluded groups that are now considered white (the Irish, Jews, Italians, and others). In this country you can become “white”, if you suit the purpose of the excluding group.
Puerto Ricans are racially diverse (). That includes whites (from a biological point of view, not as defined by the US standard, blacks, and native-americans (Tainos). Believe or not, there are some of us that are not racially mixed. Some of us are only white (of European stock), some are only black (mostly west African). The only racial group that you may not find a representative of “pure” blood are Tainos, because our white ancestors slaughtered most of them and what little of them remained were slowly killed off by European deseases. Those that survived likely were of mixed blood, able to survive these killer bugs.
Most of us, however, are of mixed blood. Interestingly enough, a large portion of the US population is also of mixed blood, similar to our own. Many “white” americans would be shocked to find out their family history, if they just bothered to look.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
Do you really feel in your heart that you are white? Well, I have freckles on my face from Irish lineage BUT I am not WHITE. In fact, the original settlers of Ireland were Black, did you know that? But if you tell that to a WHITE Puerto Rican of Irish lineage, they will practically choke on their gandules. But please, don’t take my word on it, look it up in an ancient Irish history book. Did I say that there are not Puerto Ricans of African (black)descent? No, I DID NOT. Is Mediterrenean WHITE? Are you one of those few Puerto Ricans that have traced all of their ancestors & can be 100% positive that even if you marry another white Puerto Rican (who has 100& so called pure “white” blood & has traced only white ancestors) that you would never wold give birth to a Puerto Rican mixed or partially African child? Or, would their brown skin just be a lucky “tan”? Newsflash – You can’t really look at anyone and be sure what their racial makeup is. Diversity of skin tone and being one race or the other are not the same thing or the only deciding factors. If skin tone is now the deciding factor, I’d better go tell my green/grey eyed relatives with light skin they are now white & you’ve spoken with the Queen & she can’t wait to welcome them with open arms for an oppurtunity date & marry her son.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
“Original settlers of Ireland black?” If you refer to the NYTimes article that was published recently, the original inhabitants of Ireland were from Spain–based on genetic analysis.
PS–why do people on this board continue to use the word “race” as if something real were being talked about? I mean, with all due respect, have you folks taken any biology or physixal anthropology class lately? Even science is moving away from the word-for a simple reason: there ain’t no such thing. Until people around the world appreciate that fact, we will continue to talk about phantoms. It’s almost like talking about god–no one can point to him/her, yet we like to pretend something meaningful is being said when talking about this (supposed) deity.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Race Relations Among Us
Excellent analysis!!
RE: Multicultural CaCa!
“We are Multicultural, We are a mixture of this, We are Beautiful, We are the Chosen people, We are better then those rednecks and steretyped Blacks”…Let’s get real familia here’s the knowledge:
Formorians conquered Ireland, they ran it and intermarried with the people for many years and yes, they were of African Ancestry.
The term “Black” is not relating to Race but to culture, see the writings of all major Black scholars such as Basil Davidson and Harold Courlander.
The Younglords already had this discussion in the 70’s and they came up with the conclusion that we are an AFRO-TAINO people.
The Tainos, if that is the term we want to use for them, were far from pure. Hey, what happened to those African Cousins who came to the “New World” before that Murderer Columbus and helped the Indigenous people build Pyramids?(See Ivan VAn Sertima)
Y TU ABUELA DONDE ESTA? Why is it that the majority of those things we call Puerto Rican culture primarily come from African roots with Taino flavors?
The Spaniards where not culturally “White”, please see the Moors, and Hannibal, and Hebrews who ran Spain and helped Civilize the people who didn’t believe in Bathing, or Sciences, etc…
You want to see if this country we reside in thinks we are White or Black, Look at a book called “Latin American Caricature”.
Why do we always have to be this slave mentality of one identity. You can be of Dual Identities.
Yo soy Boricua, therefore Moreno,therefore Indio therefore Asiatico, therefore I am. Have any of you ever read Willie’s poem.
There is no such thing as a white Puerto Rican, your skin tone might be light but your culture and language are anti white culture. What is white culture? Ask the ancestors of those who were lynched.
See “How the Irish Became White”.
Puerto Rican people are just as Racist as Americans, Pelo Bueno, Pelo Malo!
If you’re going to post, please do your research and don’t state some corny polls. Wow, I wonder were the “Salsa” and the “Arroz Con Gandules” we all love to eat come from? For the record, I think that we are an Afro-Taino people with stronger cultural roots to that category which has been labeled negative since day one-Black! So I guess, I’m both, and much more….
Maybe this is why Chano Pozo and Tito got along so well with their African Jazz family!
RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa! But true!
Your mixing a lot of histories and taking many leaps of questionable truth but your spirit is admirable. If we are all black, then what are we talking about? And what is this talk of civilizing anyone? Every culture that exists on earth has its own form of being. Race is subjective–we know this. Just as much as evaluating who is civilized involves subjective values. The language we speak is Spanish, the clothes we wear are western or European in origin, our foods are a mixture of influences just as our music is. Will you say that the danza is of African origin? Or that the “classical” music of PR is African? Even when we look at the culture in totality there are varying levels of influence. What of painting, literature? We are a mixture of all the races but these mixtures are not evenly distributed throughout the population. Therefore some are white and some are black and many are mixed. Is this subjective–yes! And so is yours statement. The Irish are definitely not black and you only have to go there to see that they are not. Let’s not deceive ourselves.
RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
The book, They Came Before Columbus, is at THIS point, as unproven as the view that aliens helped the Egyptians buiold the pyramids. It is unsubstantiated. Possible, yet unproven. As to the Hebrews (Jews?) “civilizing” Spain, ahgain, ther’s NO evidence for any such notion (please don’t mention the “missing” tribes).PRs share Indian, African and Spanish blood–arroz con gandules,and salsa are examples of the triethnic composition of the islanders.
BTW, the Irish were conquered by Angles, Saxons and Vikings, NOT Moors, Africans or any other group. If you’re going to make historical claims, please cite your sources. History requires a lot of work and dedication, and as a history major, nothing annoys me more than unsubstantiated claims held by a tiny, tiny minority of (mostly) nonhistorians.
Finally, I don’t think you understand racism–the ism at the end means it is a system, not just a viewpoint. PRs cannot be racist until they have the power to pass laws and exclude others based on certain features. Yes, PRs may discriminate (to prejudge) but that is not the same as racism, just ignorance. As to how the Irish became white, that’s easy–their children lost the Irish accent and moved into positions of power/leadership, especially in Boston, NYC and Philadelphia. They might have been Irish, but at least they were not Black, Mexican or Chinese. Pretty simple, really. Finally, Willie Colon is a great musician, but he’s no historian (as he would be the first to admit)
RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa! But true!
ksmit – There are plenty of black Irish, whether or not you realize that. I for one come from an English / Irish background and have very brown skinned / black features. My uncle, a black man received a major journalism award from the Irish Heritage Association in Washington D.C., a couple of years ago for his news reporting. So, please, if you don’t have accurate information – please refrain from making mis-informed statements.
RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
Ireland was first settled by a sea faring people, who were of Negro ancestory. The person who posted that message was telling the truth. Even if you don’t agree with her statement, please let her ingite in you a quest for the truth (a.k.a. read a book). I am of Irish heritage and know that she is telling the truth. If you haven’t studied my culture, how can you claim that others are so wrong????
RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
So, because you are of Irish heritagem, statements others make about the Iish are true? The lady posted NO reference–nor did I dismiss her just to dismiss her. What is the source for the statement? where is the book?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
Second point: how do you know I have not studied Irish history? I am not unwilling to engage in most points of view, but there’s a limit. I will not entertain historical claims that are not backed up, no matter what the topic at hand is. I also don’t bellieve in creationism, but am willing to look at the position if sources are cited.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa! But true!
Yes, and there are also black Englishmen. Who said that there aren’t. To claim that the Irish are black or that the English are black is another thing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
It seems to me that this debate is really going off in a strange direction since we were discussing race relations among Puerto Ricans. Be that as it may, to Alice B. I would say that Elegua makes no racial reference but uses black to refer to culture. And she states this quite flatly–that she is not talking about race but culture. Secondly, it is not likely that a seafaring people–which Africans historically have not been–from the tropics would have survived a trip North. And being somewhat a historical materialist, I would have to add and ask why would they make the effort to go there? The North Africans who are racially diverse–have journeyed far and wide. But this is much later in the 13th through 17th Centuries and, of course, I am referring to the Moors who were mostly a Semitic people. This seems to always be glossed over any modern discussions of the Moors. But remember that Malcolm X modified his views when he travelled to Mecca and saw white Moslems.
Further, I agree with Victor.
RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
You should take a trip to Puerto Rico and talk to the Ferrer family or any number of the well-to-do-families and see how anti-white their culture is!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We are diverse and I like that
speak what correctly?
spanish… oh so what is that?
go to puerto rico and tell me
you hear “correct” spanish or
go to colombia and tell me you
hear correct spanish or go to spain
you’ll hear different spanish-es…
which one is correct? if some one
from fajardo comes to nueva york, will
they speak correct nuyorican???
just a pregunta to show you how
incorrect you are in believing in
the correct.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
For people to state that ancestors who have mastered geometry, built earthquake proof building, performed brain surgery thousands of years ago, and live in a country that is surrounded by Oceans, be completely ignorant to far sea travel is ridiculous. Guess what, Spain and Portugal didn’t become a major seafaring power until they started trading with their African counterparts. Nobility, Victor have you ever heard of Timbuctoo? How many of these European “civilized” people sent their children to learn about nobility and the importance of bathing?
As for the Moors, People they came through and mostly from Africa. Islam didn’t become a major religion until the emergence of Bilal(Who was African) into Islam. Or let’s go Back, where was Hannibal who conquered most of the European world from?
Come on, I have yet to see a so called “Historian” who has really disproven what Van Sertima has researched. Mind you, Van Sertima so called “claims” are based on years of research, much of what he says is based on old knowledge that many “Historians” and Archeologists have been saying for years but were disgarded because of racism. I too am a history major and I’m speaking on fact, maybe if you would just admit that the majority of “History” books are Eurocentric and completely ignore people of African Descent you would see that these people traveled the world. Also, many of the “claims” brough by Van Sertima and many others have been substantiated by Anglo counterparts who have built boats from african materials and sailed between the old and new worlds. Black is a culture not a racial categorization. My insistance that we are an Afro-Taino people come from observance and study into the subject. Please see the “Four-Storeyed Eye Country”, “Divide Borders” by Juan Flores, and the article on Race in the last issue of CENTRO from the Centro De Estudios PR’s in Hunter College where Boricua researchers have done their homework. As for your statement that what about those things you stated where of European roots in Puerto Rico, I can easily find their African roots by doing the homework. Have you? This is not a debate but rather a point, curious that when ever anyone mentions the word “Black” in a conversation regarding Puerto Rico we all get nervous and deny this aspect or down play the subject. Look at ancient Irish custom and look at ancient African civilizations and tell me that the two aren’t connected? If only Mr. Schomburg where alive today he could shed more light into this discussion? I wonder why a Puerto Rican man (Schomburg) would dedicate his life to African Studies and base himself in a Black neighborhood? Why would one of the biggest center’s dedicated to Puerto Rican roots be based in a Black context? But then again what do I know, I’m just a Latino Man trying to survive while empowering others. “Y tu abuela donde esta, y tu abuela donde esta”…. Long Live Luis Pales Matos!!!!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Multicultural CaCa!
Your overall point (I think) that PRs get “nervous” whenever the African roots are presented, may be true, but is totally irrelevant to the discussion. Since I don’t speak for all (or even some) Prs, let them answer this charge (whomever they might be). My concern is the vast number of statements made here that are just incorrect, so let’s begin.
(1) The position being set forth is nothing more than Afrocentrism–which is just as bad as Eurocentrism; namely, the view that everything of major importance was done by Africans. Hell, Socrates even stole his philosophy from the Egyptians! Pure silliness, just as Europeans held that civilization was unknown to Africans or Natives on this side of the world. (Africans performing brain surgery? I think not, though they did perform cataract surgery–so did the Incas and Mayans, and they’re not Africans–of course if the Irish were established by Africans, then perhaps so were the Incas and Mayans and Aztecs, and Cahokians, and Missisippians…you get the point.
(2) Yes, I’ve heard of Timbuktu–it was a center of African knowledge (impressive university and library); however, that “many” Europeans sent their kids there is also incorrect. SOME did–the wealthy. However, this is a tiny tiny number of European society (it also didnt seem to do much good, since regular bathing was STILL unknown when Europeans came to this part of the world). Europeans did not send their children to Africa to learn about “nobility,” whatever that is–Europe was ruled by kings/queens, and the royal courts took care of this lesson.
(3) Your remark on Islam is also (at a minimum) questionable; Islam became a major faith starting with the end of the Prophet’s life, and really accelerating in the First Caliphate; by 732 (Battle of Tours) Islam almost swept into Europe. Yes, Moors did eventually become synonomous with black (esp. in Spain), but in fact, Moors married anyone–the unifying factor was Islam, not skin color.
(4) You “have yet to see a so called Historian” [an interesting phrase–historians who disagree with you and your peculiar position are so-called historians? Circular reasoning, and quite, quite wrong–as a history major, you should know better] not be able to refute Van sertima; or rather, “really disproven” (what does THAT mean?). Look more closely, especially at American historians (either language–by American, I mean all on this side of the world) and you will see that there is (as of yet) NO evidence for any African influence–in fact, it’s quite insulting if you think about it–only Africans were the major civilization in the world. How silly. How wrong.
(5) Many of the claims have been substantiated–the burden of proof is on you. How many? What claims? When? Does anyone disagree? Here “Anglo” historians serve you quite well all of a sudden (guess they’re not “so called” historians, after all). Years of research is not an adequate standard–what of those creationist who, based on years of research, tell us that god created the world no more than 10,000 years ago? Who cares? Either your evidence stands up or it doesnt–length of time is irrelevant.
(6) So I should admit that history texts are Eurocentric? I admit it; so what? History texts HAVE been getting better in the last 15 years and will continue to do so. It does NOT mean that ALL historians (or “so called historians”) are always right ALL the time (look at the recent debate over how exactly the Indians got here). However, I will not then swing to the other exteme, and say that all (or most) technological innovations, philosophies, religions, sciences, art, music, etc. were heavily influenced by Africa. I wouldnt say this for any other center of civilization, either. It was PEOPLE who created, quite a bit independently from others.
(7) I dont think anyone would disagree that we are a Taino-African people–but also a Spanish one–I know, I know, the Spanish were also black! (sigh). As to your point that we PRs get all nervous about black roots, this is also quite wrong; but as stated before, I will let PRs answer this (have you read the previous posts? I think you’ll see this is at a minimum questionable.
(8) So Schomburg spent his life looking at African roots in PR. Yes he did–we should be grateful–the point is, why would he be exempt? If he’d stated positions that were wrong, then they should be criticized and rejected. Why did he base himself in a black neighborhood? Maybe he was black? Or looked it? The point is that this is also irrelevant (as a substantive point) but was also reflective of the fact that he wouldnt be allowed to live in a white neighborhood. You think?
(9) Similarities between Irish and African customs? Not Anglo-Saxon or Scandanavian or Viking? Hmm. I note how you didn’t even mention one similarity between the two that shows the Irish were “civilized” by the Africans.
That’s all for now.
The Ancient Greeks
During their flourishing period under Pericles, when philosophy significantly developed in secular form and geometry was given a theoretical foundation, the ancient greeks still had not invented or borrowed a plow. Keep this in mind when trying to use circumstantial inferences to support your argument which is fallacious to begin with.
RE: The Ancient Greeks
Yup, that’s a good point, K! Guess independent discoveries doesn’t count for much anymore. 🙂
Scattered Scriptures of the History Janitor
“Can you post your sources when speaking from so called “fact” and please show me some Latino “non-eurocentric” or “non-afrocentric” scholars who back YOUR claims”
REPLIES TO YOUR LAST POST:
It is not to say that we replace a Eurocentric construct with a bias Afrocentric one, just that we must actually take the time to study the facts. Mr. Schomburg created a huge and detailed library and history collection that spans the Black and Latino experience, can you say that as a historian you have done the same? Have you actually studied the complete history of Puerto Rican people? Have you spoken to Boriqua scholars? Have you spoken to people from Africa and Black Scholars on this subject? I’m just curious as to how you make these “historical” assertions. Mind you that you are saying that he’s (Schomburg) wrong!!! Eso es Loco!!!! Yes, he is not perfect and did make mistakes but it is very hard to find actual historians who have done the work that he has and in his field which was basically ignored until he came along. He lived in Harlem and worked there because our lovely “American Historians” wouldn’t have him living next to them in Segregated times speaking against the bias that was their hippocrisy. Un Puertoriqueño could only live next to the Brothers because that was the one place we could find safety in an oppressive white world. (See the Memoirs of Bernando Vega and Down these Mean Streets)
Islam WAS on a decline until the rise of Bilal(Do you know who this Is?!?) and more converts by Muhammad from Africa, speak to an Iman who has actually studied the history. Muhammad was condemned early in his life for his beliefs and it wasn’t until later with greater numbers that the faith spread (Sometimes by Force).
The Moors did marry with Many, so does that mean that their offspring are no longer African or culturally “Black”? Remember that the people who ran Spain prior to the Moors where the Barbaric tribes such as the Visigoths. What great contributions did they make when they weren’t being conquered by the Africans such as Hannibal and others? If we are to talk about our Spanish roots then lets look at the complete history of this people, etc…
Look at Irish dance, early religion, and family structure for the comparison to African root. Are you saying that the Formorians didn’t exists, that they in the mind of Van Sertime and others? How about the White Scholar who wrote Black Spark, White Fire! Does he fabricate his claims about the early roots of European civilizations?
There is also a very dark documentary serious titled “Faces of Death” which actually has a segment that shows African tribes performing Brain surgery for people with tumors in the tradition of their ancestors. Don’t ask me which number in the series because it was a while ago that I saw the documentary but check it out for yourself. Yes, we do have many roots but look at PREDOMINANTLY who we are Culturally speaking. That Afro-Taino Root way over rides the colonial Spanish one.
I would love to get more insight into this discussion from other Puerto Rican Scholars and African Diaspora Historians as far as their opinion. As for Van Sertima’s assertions, what do you called a couple of thousand pound heads that resemble African warriors, found in a region where the people don’t look like that and where African historians(See Mandingo Griots-history of Abubakari) themselves cite the year and how they got to the new world. This is not to say that others where not traveling the seas(The Chinese, Indigenous Groups from South America, The Vikings) but that if you look at those groups who were using cutting edge technology, you would find a point of reference that points mostly to Africa (Hey, La gente Africana estaban aqui primero! I didn’t write it like that, just ask Dr.Lekey and his Tanzanian bones). History books have gotten some what better but at the cost of trying to be politically correct and none if any of the writers look and talk like us. Are we to trust others to write our history for us? Particularly when the history shows that the conquerer loves to distort facts for his own self-gratification. The slave trade is a great example of this. This is not to say that there aren’t Black Scholars who are not Bias but rather, if you do the digging and research you will find those who know what they are talking about. So tell me, when did you speak to Van Sertima about his facts? He’s easily accesible at Rutgers I believe? Maybe a trip to Jersey could be your chance as a historian to prove that he has no basis for his so called “claims”. Words are a very powerful thing in our community and we must take the time to investigate people who write our history to see if they are really true to themselves and us.
I think a trip to Nigeria or the Congo should be in order to discover who we are. Don’t be surprise when you ask for the traditional meal and your African Brothers and Sisters give you a plate or Arroz con Gandules and Tostones!!! Anyway, here are some proven scholars and writers you can check to see that their is proof for my assertions and please read and research their stuff: JD Rogers, J.D. FAGE, Basil Davidson, Harold Courlander, African Presence in the Americas-Moore, EAgle and the Jaguar-Blasini, “Four Storeyed Eye Country”-Jose Gonzalez?, “Santeria Aesthetics” -Arturo Lindsay, “How the Irish Became White”- Ingatiev, “Who is Black” – F. James Davis, “The Golden Trade of the Moors”-Bovill, “THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION”-Chancellor Williams, “Scattered Scriptures”-Luis Reyes Rivera, “Down these Mean Streets” Piri Thomas, (Have you read any of these during your historical research? In not, Why? Also, have you been to the African-American/Caribbean Cultural Institute in Nueva Yol? Señora Marta Moreno Vega is a very good reference for looking up Puerto Rican history facts)
Many of these books have excellent reference footnotes as to how they obtained their information since you asked for proof particularly Mr. Rivera’s which took 20 years to write. The late Mr.Rogers was a stickler for showing proof as was Mr. Williams. The timbuktu school point was to show you that Europeans learned much of their “nobility” and “etiquette” from their souther neighbors when they weren’t busy making them slaves. This shows a pattern for how movements into Arab and African territories during the middle ages helped bring enlightment into Europe during the Dark Ages by obtaining “Black” culture and technology.
So everyone asks, “What does this have to do with Borinken?”. Well, we can’t know where we are going if we don’t know where we’ve been? Multicultural CaCa! Who isn’t Multicultural? In this racist land, it’s sad but true either Blanco o Negro, there’s no middle ground. When the time arises, which will we choose? What are Race relations among Boricuas? Let’s say that sayings like “Pelo Bueno and Pelo Malo” which still survive to this day tell the story….THE SOUND OF LA FANIA ECHOES IN THE BACKGROUND OF THE SCHOLAR’S BARRIO WHILE PUERTO RICAN MUSICIANS PLAY AFRICAN DRUMS PRETENDING TO BE THE GRIOTS OF THE PAST……….
RE: Scattered Scriptures of the History Janitor
You are operating under what is known as the “shotgun approach,” where one doesnt have to aim at the target, but pieces of the shot will hit something–anything. The responses are extensive, and I will look over this over the weekend, but thus far nothing said nor anything quoted prove your points. All these sources prove (and BTW, my impression based on some of the works cited, which I HAVE read/consulted [I wonder why Afrocentrists always begin attacking those who disagree, but that’s a nonpoint in my book]that it’s quite easy to pick and choose among historians to prove one’s erroneous point. Note I NEVER said there was not an impressive series of African cultures–who would deny that? I did (and still do) disagree with the majority of your claims, and thus far, you have basically repeated the same nonsense–the big heads which Afrocentric historians seem to think with almost mastubatory pleasure prove Africans were here are in fact OLMEC heads, another impressive preColumbian civilization–I know, I know they are also black (sigh)–and the Olmecs are not at all African. This is similar to “debating” with creationists, and in fact there is a great deal of similarity with the two camps–the quoting only of sources which agree with one’s position, the misquoting of the opponent’s position, ad hominem attacks, etc. But I will post a point by point answer to your post, do not fear.
No one disagrees that the roots of PR culture are also African–when did I? In fact, if you reread the end of my last post, you’ll see it very clearly stated. I don’t object to ALL you wrote–even in error there is SOME truth. I DO disagree with major portions of what you stated, because I’m very familiar with the position (You might have forgotten to include Martin Bernal as another “source,” though the man is a joke among linguists, historians, archeologists, etc. But I digress). I also have no objection to Schomburg, but think your interpretation of his work is seriously flawed–he simply showed that blacks have contributed to American history–who except racists disagree? But again, let me stete: I TOTALLY disagree with major, major portions of your thesis, including the Irish-Black claim and your historical view of Islam’s spread is seriously flawed. Time to take some courses with “historians.” But I’ll be back!
RE: RE: Scattered Scriptures of the History Janitor
Victor,
For the Record, I am not an AfroCentrist and I TOTALLY AGREE that many afrocentrist do have a one sided view of seeing things. Many of those books I listed show different opinions and research from many perspectives, you only have to do the research and come to your own conclusions. All I’m stating is that from a cultural perspective we are Afro-Taino people and that “historians” have a long history of denying the Afro part(Even including those black and Latino historians who distort for their own selfish gains).
Do your own research and you will see that Black is a culture and not a racial construct(Unless we’re talking from the White Racist Perspective). Also, you are seriously minimizing Arturo’s work. One of the biggest African-American historians John Henry Clarke quotes Schomburg(A puerto rican Man) as his reason for becoming a historian. Arturo did more then just show african roots if you study his whole life.
Make sure you give Van Sertima a call in Rutgers and check out Louis Reyes Rivera’s work. Mr.Rivera is also in Nueva Yol and can easily be access if you ask around(He’s not an “AFRO-CENTRIST). Just because you study African roots doesn’t mean you’re an AFRO-CENTRIST(I leave that categorization to Leonard Jeffries and Amiri Baraka or Karenga)
Yes, time to take some more courses with Historian but how many of them are actually Boricua or Black? There is no shotgun approach just a constant theme that African people did travel the world and contributed greatly to our society just like Asians and Native Americans, etc.. Why is it so hard to accept the fact that Africans could have traded and intermarried with the Olmecs and other society’s. Or that these two society’s could have merged? Remember that this is a huge body of work that can’t be dismissed in a couple of paragraphs or a couple of one sided history courses. Whole conferences have occurred on the issue of Race in the Puerto Rican community and Identity. Go check out the Centro De Estudios PR’s and talk to Juan Flores about Puerto Rican Identity or please, please, check out Mrs. Vega.
Also, I’m not saying that Africans populated Ireland or are the sole contributers of culture, I’m just saying that there was interaction between these two groups and many others in Europe. Also, my point on Islam is based on discussions with Iman’s who study the history of their religion.(See Destruction of Black Civilization-By Chancellor Williams).
I opened up this discussion to show what race relations among our people shows. By studying the race dynamics from a cultural and historical perspective we can come to some conclusions as to why we always claim this multicultural caca when it comes to issues of race and identity. By claiming multicultural we take the easy way out of dealing with internal racist notions like “Pelo this, and that” that continue to be propagated into today. In any case, at least you have the drive to study these subjects rather then live blind. We need more Latino Scholars in our communities.
Adios.
PS-Those Irish had to get their soul from somewhere, tell me that tap dancing and the River dance don’t look the same!(LOL)
“MILLIONS OF AFRO-AMERICANS (BLACKS) IN SOUTH AMERICA, THE ANTILLES and the United States grow up in a European-American environment and without any knowledge of AFRICAN CULTURE. Except for the colour of their skins they are Americans like any others. Yet the others think this colour a blemish and let those in question feel it. THUS THE AFRO-AMERICAN IS CONSTANTLY REMINDED OF HIS ORIGIN, WHICH HAS OTHERWISE OFTEN LOST ALL MEANING FOR HIM” FRANTZ FANON from the Book “MUNTU”-African Culture and the Western World By Janheinz Jahn (A white Historian)
Check out “Ay, Ay, Ay, for the Kinky Black Woman” By Julia De Burgos (She Identifies herself as Black but clearly this was not the visual picture) As you know, Señora Burgos was one of the most famous Boricua poets to grace the literary world.
White Ribbons
In one of the pictures from Vieques I noticed an elderly woman standing next to a fence covered in white ribbons. In an article elsewhere I read the ribbons stood for Peace. In honor of this woman and Vieques, I have placed a white ribbon on the attenae of my car. In addition, I have copied the Marina Fuera Sign and placed it in my car window. I encourage all Vieques supporters to do the same.
Everyone, Place a White Ribbon on your car, trees, picket signs, etc to symbolize the fight for Naval freedom in Vieques.
In the 90’s I was a yellow ribbon supporter of the Troops in Gulf War. I had many college friend and school teachers called to the war. While the ribbons themselves did not bring them home, The display of the yellow ribbons everywhere supported our friends and loved ones as called by the military.
I knew people of all ages, all walks of life and all races supporting and knowing what these ribbons were for. It is a similiar story with the pink ribbons for breast cancer awareness and other ribbons for causes. When people do not know what the ribbons mean, they ask questions and we can share the information to spread awareness of the plight of Vieques.
Please everyone, Find a White Ribbon somewhere and Show the fight for Vieques is not ending with a few demonstrations here and there. The large battle is at hand. We must spread the word of Vieques and get more people involved.
I am so happy to see that there are so many cities having demonstatrations, but there should be more.
We need to write letters, send emails, and encourage our representatives to have a bill passed to cease Naval activites in Vieques. The time is now. Voting seasons will be coming soon, and we need all the votes and supporters we can muster. The pictures have helped, but Everyone needs to know.
GODPEACE
Vieques SI
Marina NO
PEACE TO VIEQUES No More BOMBS (concrete or Live!)
I was born in Guayama, Puerto Rico in 1983, moved to Boston, in 1987, so i’m not sure about the island very much, but being here in the US has taught me that if your not anglo white, than it doesn’t matter if your puertorican white, puertorican brown, ect., or any other spanish race, if your not white your not gonna be treated like your expected to be treated, its just that a person thats black is more likely to be a victim of racism than any other person on the planet.
when i was a young person living in New York City, i never knew anything about being black, all i knew is that i was different from the American blacks because my family spoke spanish and listened to spanish music and carried ourselves differently. However, i learned quickly that here in America, if you carry African-American features despite being Puerto rican, you are a black man who speaks spanish and they wll refer you to as a “Niger” inferior in intelligence, most likely to land in prison, living and carrying on in a dysfunctional family setting and all the stereo types that go along with being African-American. It wasn’t until my own people thought i was black and a few who at first showed that same prejudice against a dark skin that blacks were shown by whites that i decided to conduct deep rooted researches on my dark skinned people in the island and in other Afro-latino island such as in cuba and santo domingo. It is confusing in many regards to assume that there is no racism in Puerto rico, and then to discover that your neighbor who is a white Puerto rican, did not allowed her young white Puerto rican daughter to date my dark skinned cousin. I became confused then and it deepened my confusion when white and black puerto ricans stood in the same side to fight off African-American blacks and American whites. We stuck together here in New YOrk when other cultures tried to invade us, yet however, at times, we, us darkskinned puerto ricans who carried the African bloodline were ridiculed by our lighter skinned brothers with straight hair and blue eyes. We at times showed great unity as a whole when it involved a island athlete, like roberto clemente or felix Trinidad, however, there were other times when lighter female mothers would not allowed their daughters to date a negrito as we were refered to because we would mess up the race. Very confusing. Even more antagonizing to not want to accept me as their race, not all, but some by insisting that i was mix or Dominican but for the most part, it deepened my quest to discover where i came from, and what it means to be a Puerto Rican. I believe that the darker you are as a puerto rican, the more you had to improve the dialect of the spanish accent. If you already look like a Boricua, there is no need to make the effort to convince the public that you are Puerto rican but the average joe will automatically assume that you are black if you look black unless a spansih word comes out of your mouth to indicate that you may look black but in reality, are Puerto Rican. I am realizing now that dark skins in Puerto rico and in dominican republic are second to them, just go to the banks and airports and see who are running the big time jobs and who are just working for them, doing labor. That is why i believe that so many do marry lighter skinned to improve the race so that their children may look more like the Puerto ricans that showcase American television….
Hello all. I stumbled across this archive while looking for a specific group. I am African American/Black/Moreno/Negro (whatever sounds better today). I am looking for a any websites that are devoted to Blacks who speak spanish fluently. The reason why is because aside from the very publicized view of the “Black/Latino conflict”, there is an growing undercurrent of Blacks who do appreciate Latino culture. I speak/read/write spanish; dance Salsa, Merengue, Bachata, Seis, Bomba, y Plena; salsa encebollada con camarones; help the Latino community as a member of the Palm Beach County Health Department for those who don’t speak english; and generally live 90% of my life in a spanish speaking culture. Despite all of the problems of culture, race, and class I just wanted to say that I appreciate my experiences very much and I wouldn’t trade them for anything.
hola a todos ustedes… well i was born in san diego california and i was raised in san juan puerto rico y despues yo me vine back a los estados unidos, now i live here in san diego once again to attend San Diego State University and i live in the dorms….. i havent seen my mother in 8 years because she stayed there in PR. pero im fine. bueno i really enjoy reading all these thins everyone has to say…and i admitt it is very ineresante y me encentaria ser parte de su conversasiones vale??
I can call this the story of my life and of many other Boricuas.
Que viva Puerto Rico y que todas sus voces se unan en un solo canto de esperanza a la soberania.
Letra: Juan Antonio Corretjer
Música: Roy Brown
Boricua en la luna
Desde las ondas del mar
que son besos a su orilla,
una mujer de Aguadilla
vino a New York a cantar.
Pero no, solo a llorar
un largo llanto y morir.
De ese llanto yo nací
como la lluvia una fiera.
Y vivo en larga espera
de cobrar lo que perdí.
Por un cielo que se hacía
mas feo mas más volaba
a Nueva York se acercaba
un peón de Las Marías
Con la esperanza, decía,
de un largo día volver.
Pero antes me hizo nacer
Y de tanto trabajar
se quedo sin regresar:
reventó en un taller.
De una lagrima soy hijo
y soy hijo del sudor
y fue mi abuelo el amor
único en mi regocijo
del recuerdo siempre fijo
en aquel cristal del llanto
como quimera en el canto
de un Puerto Rico de ensueño
y yo soy Puertorriqueño,
sin na, pero sin quebranto.
Y el “echón” que me desmienta
que se ande muy derecho
no sea en lo mas estrecho
de un zaguán pague la afrenta.
Pues según alguien me cuenta:
dicen que la luna es una
sea del mar o sea montuna.
Y así le grito al villano:
yo sería borincano
aunque naciera en la luna.
as a latino -of non puerto-rican descent ill tell you many of us view puerto ricans as black. regardless of your color!you guys dress and talk just like them so yea i dont consider you guys latino